Jim Knopf, conference, fandom
Apr. 21st, 2003 10:58 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
lobelia321I made a new icon to amuse ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
blithesea over there in China, yearning for her Bauernbrot, *g*.
And it amuses me, too. *winks at fellow Germans who recognise the boy!!*
Naughty Mei Hemm even suggested slashing Lukas/Pirate who confuses K with X and other madcap possibilities. I'm not above all this at all. The 13 (heh, 12) pirates are manly as anything, and oh-so-proud, and "Pirates of the Caribbean": go home!
My paper, btw, went very well. And I met some wonderful colleagues and heard a paper given by an Australian woman (of course!) which was all about totally OTT homoerotica of the turn of the century. We saw balls and bondage and rolling eyes. Slash invaded academia!
And I realised that the womanly man-on-man love goes way beyond slash. But who knows? Perhaps paper giver is secret slasha...!
girloftheq recced some books on fandom. I read one.
I couldn't find the one that has chapters on slash (t'stuffy reference library doesn't stock it! *shock*) So I read another one by N. Baym on soap opera fandom. Interesting musings:
It's already historical. Most of it dates from 1993-4 when usenet was the biggie (what? no pretty icons??) and most users accessed the internet from work because nobody had access at home.
It's not slash. It's all about chatting about the actual show and the episodes. There's no fic writing.
What I found the most interesting, though, and strangely liberating: otherwise, it all sounds exactly like LJ or the smaller lists of today. It's all about the community. They met each other irl, they formed little sub-groups via email, they talked in OTish ways about their real lives.
I talked to my counsellor for the first time about my online life last Monday. I didn't mention slash, I didn't mention fandom, I couched it all in terms of 'writing' - why is it so difficult for me to out myself? Even so, it plunged me into gloom for five days running. Then this book plunged me out of it again. Here's an academic who seems to be able to merge the two lives, real and secretly debauched. And while I'm always thinking I'm wasting time if I'm not writing-writing or reading-and-fbing, the realisation that the 'wasting time', hanging round people's LJ and leaving comments is perhaps actually one of the prime motivators -- cheered me up.
englshangel, following some sort of springtime meme, today announced her departure from LJ, because internet Friends cannot replace real friends. I myself have endless thoughts about this. It's not about replacing. Nobody replaces anybody. You could formulate it the other way round, too: real friends do not replace online Friends. (I'll differentiate via caps.) Online Friends fulfill some sort of function, they click into a part of my brain that evidently needs them (I shouldn't say 'them': you lot, heh). I don't want to wean myself.
And if I get on with some people only via online communication (for whatever reason: geographical, mostly) or better via online communication or both online and offline, then that is not a Bad Thing. That is simply A Thing. (Although Baym does gloss over what happens when you do meet online people irl. It does make a difference. I'm pondering how. It's different from case to case, really.)
It's as if there are two overhead projector transparencies (yes, ever the teacher, let's take our similes from the seminar room, shall we...). Each transparency has the same picture on it but they're not aligned so they produce a wonky picture, where everything is out of sync. And it's as if that's me, and I'm spending my time trying to move each of these two transparencies so that they finally gel and come together in one image.
Maybe that's an illusion. Maybe there never can be a perfect fit between the two lives. But maybe there can be a better fit than there has been, at least. At least in my own mind. And maybe I need both of the aspects. Because after all, the boundaries between what's called 'real life' in online parlance and whatbadgermonkey calls secret double life, are not so strictly drawn. Maybe these boundaries are fanon, not reality. An online rhetorical convention.
Partly all these musings are also prompted bybadgermonkey's A.F. life and sheldrake's ongoing wrestlings with similar questions.
blithesea over there in China, yearning for her Bauernbrot, *g*.And it amuses me, too. *winks at fellow Germans who recognise the boy!!*
Naughty Mei Hemm even suggested slashing Lukas/Pirate who confuses K with X and other madcap possibilities. I'm not above all this at all. The 13 (heh, 12) pirates are manly as anything, and oh-so-proud, and "Pirates of the Caribbean": go home!
My paper, btw, went very well. And I met some wonderful colleagues and heard a paper given by an Australian woman (of course!) which was all about totally OTT homoerotica of the turn of the century. We saw balls and bondage and rolling eyes. Slash invaded academia!
And I realised that the womanly man-on-man love goes way beyond slash. But who knows? Perhaps paper giver is secret slasha...!
girloftheq recced some books on fandom. I read one.I couldn't find the one that has chapters on slash (t'stuffy reference library doesn't stock it! *shock*) So I read another one by N. Baym on soap opera fandom. Interesting musings:
It's already historical. Most of it dates from 1993-4 when usenet was the biggie (what? no pretty icons??) and most users accessed the internet from work because nobody had access at home.
It's not slash. It's all about chatting about the actual show and the episodes. There's no fic writing.
What I found the most interesting, though, and strangely liberating: otherwise, it all sounds exactly like LJ or the smaller lists of today. It's all about the community. They met each other irl, they formed little sub-groups via email, they talked in OTish ways about their real lives.
I talked to my counsellor for the first time about my online life last Monday. I didn't mention slash, I didn't mention fandom, I couched it all in terms of 'writing' - why is it so difficult for me to out myself? Even so, it plunged me into gloom for five days running. Then this book plunged me out of it again. Here's an academic who seems to be able to merge the two lives, real and secretly debauched. And while I'm always thinking I'm wasting time if I'm not writing-writing or reading-and-fbing, the realisation that the 'wasting time', hanging round people's LJ and leaving comments is perhaps actually one of the prime motivators -- cheered me up.
englshangel, following some sort of springtime meme, today announced her departure from LJ, because internet Friends cannot replace real friends. I myself have endless thoughts about this. It's not about replacing. Nobody replaces anybody. You could formulate it the other way round, too: real friends do not replace online Friends. (I'll differentiate via caps.) Online Friends fulfill some sort of function, they click into a part of my brain that evidently needs them (I shouldn't say 'them': you lot, heh). I don't want to wean myself.And if I get on with some people only via online communication (for whatever reason: geographical, mostly) or better via online communication or both online and offline, then that is not a Bad Thing. That is simply A Thing. (Although Baym does gloss over what happens when you do meet online people irl. It does make a difference. I'm pondering how. It's different from case to case, really.)
It's as if there are two overhead projector transparencies (yes, ever the teacher, let's take our similes from the seminar room, shall we...). Each transparency has the same picture on it but they're not aligned so they produce a wonky picture, where everything is out of sync. And it's as if that's me, and I'm spending my time trying to move each of these two transparencies so that they finally gel and come together in one image.
Maybe that's an illusion. Maybe there never can be a perfect fit between the two lives. But maybe there can be a better fit than there has been, at least. At least in my own mind. And maybe I need both of the aspects. Because after all, the boundaries between what's called 'real life' in online parlance and what
badgermonkey calls secret double life, are not so strictly drawn. Maybe these boundaries are fanon, not reality. An online rhetorical convention.Partly all these musings are also prompted by
badgermonkey's A.F. life and sheldrake's ongoing wrestlings with similar questions.![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2003-04-21 06:17 am (UTC)I have a happy RL, I have a lot of wonderful friends, but were I to give up on my internet life for them, there's a whole part of me that would be unfulfilled.
real friends do not replace online Friends. (I'll differentiate via caps.) Online Friends fulfill some sort of function, they click into a part of my brain that evidently needs them
I couldn't agree more. I don't think I could ever give any of the two lives up, because it is then that I would be very unhappy.
Although, there is one factor that I believe makes my conciling the two lives easier: I don't have a secret double life. All my rl friends know about me and my online life. They know what I read, they know what I write, and they know what I watch. They don't necessarily approve, they don't necessarily understand, but they do know and deal. And believe me, it makes everything way easier to deal with. Not to mention that it helps me to feel proud about myself, about whoever I am, dark vices included. :-)
secret not so secret
Date: 2003-04-21 09:35 am (UTC)This is very interesting. Was there a time when you didn't tell people? And why did you decide to tell, and how did you go about it? And do people even care?
I think for me it would be nice to break down the barrier to some extent. I have been keeping the secret life secret to an extreme extent, and it's not good for me.
Re: secret not so secret
Date: 2003-04-21 10:12 am (UTC)Basically, the reason I never kept this internet life from anybody (not even my family, even though they might not know everything, but that's because I believe they don't need to know everything about me, not because I'm scared of their reaction, lol) was because I worked hard at being proud of myself. I am whoever I am, and that includes all of the dark sides. Yes, I watch gay porn. Yes, I read and write RPS. I'm not going to advertize it and talk about it constantly with my real life friends, but it is a part of who I am and so, I want them to love me for me, not because of one part of me that they know. I can't face having people not knowing everything about me, and then having to face the fear they might some day discover things and stop loving me. I want them to know before any of us get attached. No disappointment that way.
So yes, they knew from the start. And when I got into Dawson's Creek fanfiction and started writing straight porn for it, I even had my mum read it, lol. So you see, not much dark corners in my life.
that said, some of them mind. One of them in particular, who apparently can't deal with the fact that I am both embracing my attraction to women AND writing/reading slash. But you know what? It doesn't hurt me as much as it would if I knew she'd disapprove and didn't tell her. Plus she's the only one. The others are happy I've found people who share that particular passion which they don't, my male friends love me for admitting it when other women wouldn't, and some are even curious as to what and how and when. All in all, it works perfectly well. I'm happy with my friends because they know me and still love me, I'm proud of whoever I am, including my quirks and vices, and if I lost someone in the process, it wasn't someone I cared to keep given the circumstances.
I think, before you break such a barrier down, what you need isn't to be sure that others will still accept you despite this side of you they didn't know. I think most importantly, YOU need to accept yourself as who you are, with your vices and dark sides and secret addictions. You need to realize you can be proud of yourself not because of parts of what makes you you, but because of all of these parts together making a whole. I know it sounds cheezy but really, it's true. lol. Because utlimately, there is always a risk that some of your friends won't understand. And if they don't but don't make a big deal out of it, then fine. But if they don't and make it something big, you need to be strong enough in your own pride that you can defend yourself in front of them, or at least, not take their leaving too badly. I know it took me years to get to the point where it really mattered more what I thought of myself than what others thought.
That said, it's always hard to deal with rejection and disapproval. Which is why it's the best thing when you're able to concile the two sides of your personality, but it's not always something people can do easily. :-) I was lucky that none of my friends cared all that much besides being curious (it got a lot of them to admit to watching porn, lol). Or at least, that only one of them couldn't deal. I can't tell you what it would be like for you, just that if you ever managed to reach the point where it didn't matter what you did with your free and alone time, then everything would be decidedly easier.
I hope you get there, and I hope your friends realize it doesn't make you any less of a wonderful person. *smooch*
Re: secret not so secret
Date: 2003-04-21 10:20 am (UTC)That said, both lives are still very separate. I just wasn't sure that was clear, lol.
icon
Date: 2003-04-21 03:18 pm (UTC)Re: icon
Date: 2003-04-21 05:54 pm (UTC)Re: secret not so secret
Date: 2003-04-21 02:51 pm (UTC)I think most importantly, YOU need to accept yourself as who you are, with your vices and dark sides and secret addictions.
And I think that is absolutely true. I think that is what I, at any rate, am grappling with right now. It's trying to get all the disparate pieces of myself to fit together a little bit better -- not even perfectly but more than they have been.
And the funny thing is what I regard as 'dark side'. I'm not even as embarrassed about the man-on-man sex thing as much as about other aspects of online life. I think having discovered the slash and lived and breathed it for these past 15 months has made me much more comfortable with (possibly) coming out about that. It's the fandom aspect (what, at my age? drool over fucking movie stars??) and the online (oh how weird, the *internet*) aspect. Put it all together plus the fact that I put very personal, intimate, gut things into my fic in a way I don't put these things anywhere else in my life -- and it all starts to look very vulnerable.
To me, anyway. I just can't seem to risk it. And yes, you're right, it's all to do with my own perceptions. Because, as others have pointed out to me, most people won't even care.
I know it took me years to get to the point where it really mattered more what I thought of myself than what others thought.
So how did you go about getting there??
And how long have you had an online life, and how did having it change your being unhappy with/in rl?
Re: secret not so secret
Date: 2003-04-21 05:52 pm (UTC)I can see how that's a problem, especially the fandom aspect, since it's one I have to deal with on a regular basis. Lately, it's become a recurring subject in arguments with my mom. She believes I can't be a responsible adult if I don't stop being a fangirl. But see, that's her problem, not mine. I consider myself adult and responsible enough (I have a job, a nice social life, aims and all that stuff... where is there a problem with me and responsibility?), and if her perceptions are screwed... *shrug* There are a LOT of fans out there who are way older than I am, and I suspect, way older than you are. Some of them are even pretty famous, I'm sure. Do you really think Peter Jackson stopped being a fan just because he's adult and responsible? Do you think Spielberg did?
Actually, my dad sulks in a corner every time something is keeping him from going skiing or from playing tennis. Tell me, how is that more mature and adult and responsible than being all excited and drooling over pretty boys?
Some people collect stamps, some people become obsessive about travelling and keep inviting their friends over to show pictures and ramble on and on about them... and some of us just love the pretty boys a lot. I think it's all a question of pre-set social mindframes. Social rules say that certain hobies are strictly teen-hobies, and I just don't agree. I'm passionate about movies, but I'm also closer to 30 than 20. Does it mean that all of a sudden, I must stop being all excited over an actor and start being excited over lighting and camera movement?
So yes, I can see why that's a problem. It was for me, too. But now, it's only a problem for some people in my life, but no longer for me. :-)
So how did you go about getting there??
Oh dear... uh... well, I went through depression, medication, therapy... worked on all that, you know? Found a way to accept everything. I don't really know how it happened. I only know it wasn't overnight and that I needed the help provided by meds and councelling. It was a long process, and sometimes, I guess, it's not completely finished. But mostly, I'm happy with who I am, I'm proud of who I am, and what others think doesn't matter as much anymore.
And how long have you had an online life, and how did having it change your being unhappy with/in rl?
Well, I didn't start having an online life until after I'd delt with most of my issues in rl. So that was something like 3 years ago. By then, I knew I was a typical fangirl, lol. What my online life provided me with was a place to be a fangirl. Internet provided me with a forum to share this particular passion of mine.
Also, I'm a total English freak. I love the language, can't write in French, read mostly in English, etc... and well, that's not something I can really enjoy in rl. My friends aren't much into English, you know? So I got that from my online life as well.
Also, the fact that I have that online life, and the fact that all my friends know of it has helped me to leave it aside when I'm dealing with my everyday life. It's no longer all-consuming. Before, it was very annoying to most of my friends, because I didn't have a way of letting it all out. Now I do, and my relationships are all the easier for it.
There are a lot of other aspects to this online life that make it something I'm very happy with. There's the fact that I've met people from all over the world, that I've been able to talk about things I can't talk about with most of my rl friends... there's also the fact that most of what little creativity I have finds a better medium with the internet than it would were I to just write with pen and paper.
I don't know.... I'm just happy in general, lol. I do have moments when stuff gets me down. Usually more from rl than online life, though. But yes, mostly I'm happy with who I am, I'm happy with what I do, and I'm happy with all of my "lives", lol. :-) Hopefully, you'll reach the point where everything doesn't have to be anything else but complementary, too.
And hopefully, some of all this actually made sense... *scratches head* I tried, lol. :-)
(no subject)
Date: 2003-04-21 06:47 am (UTC)*shakes her head in amusement, muttering: "mad slashers"*
Found your comments on RL vs Secret Life very interesting. Because I had a long talk with my very best friend about exactly that. Seems she can't understand at all why I spend so much time with people I do not even know personally. But she isn't into writing (nor into slash) - so I guess it's hard to see what makes this medium so attractive. Came across an article these days about the renaissance of writing due to online journals and discussion boards. Much truth in it, I believe. Plus, it's an interactive THING. It's not just hanging around passively.
Completely agree with you that online friends cannot/do not replace RL friends - and vice versa. So what's so fascinating about this online life? Personally, I quite like the idea of having a secret life, absolutely NO ONE knows about. Even if the boundaries are not so strictly drawn why should one try to merge the two? Can't they exist - quite peacefully - side by side?
And talking about co-existence, isn't the idea rather comforting of having things in common with people from all over the world? And be it lusting commonly over shirtless!pirates. I think that's not so bad for a start.
interactive thing
Date: 2003-04-21 09:39 am (UTC)Where, where, where??
Plus, it's an interactive THING.
Yes, exactly, this is the community addiction factor. Although perhaps I should just stop using that word 'addiction' because it's so negative. I think I'm still left (maybe old fogey generation?) with a sense of online relations being weird and odd, but maybe we need new definitions of relationships that encompass these virtual ones.
Personally, I quite like the idea of having a secret life, absolutely NO ONE knows about. Even if the boundaries are not so strictly drawn why should one try to merge the two? Can't they exist - quite peacefully - side by side?
Yes, this is what I found but then, a few months ago, it all went haywire for me and now I think, for me anyway, it would be quite beneficial to out myself at least to some people. I feel closeted. And they're not co-existing "peacefully", for me there's a pushme-pullyou tension.
isn't the idea rather comforting of having things in common with people from all over the world?
Oh, when I first discovered the online slash world, this was wonderfully comforting! To discover that my weird quirky fetish was shared by literally thousands... it was quite breathtaking.
Re: interactive thing
Date: 2003-04-21 12:43 pm (UTC)Where, where, where??
Shall I email it to you? It's from MAX, from a series on future trends in various fields.
I think I'm still left (maybe old fogey generation?) with a sense of online relations being weird and odd, but maybe we need new definitions of relationships that encompass these virtual ones.
Well, online relations can be weird and odd, same as RL relations, but that's not inevitable. Yes, I think we need new definitions for those relationships. And what's that with "old fogey generation"? C'mon, I'm a year older than you and I find it's quite nice being old AND fogey :-)
Yes, this is what I found but then, a few months ago, it all went haywire for me and now I think, for me anyway, it would be quite beneficial to out myself at least to some people. I feel closeted. And they're not co-existing "peacefully", for me there's a pushme-pullyou tension.
Hmmmmm, I don't have a problem sharing my drawings with other people (be it nudes or not) because I think some of the stuff's not so bad. But it's different when it comes to writing. Not because it's slash or porn. I don't want to read RL ppl to read the "harmless" stuff either. Simply because I'm afraid it's fluff or pretentious or simply badly written. And as long as I'm not totally convinced of what I've written I don't want to share it with RL people. Besides, I think it's not necessary that everyone knows EVERYTHING about me. But I can understand that you see this differently, especially if you no longer feel comfortable with the situation as it is.
Re: interactive thing
Date: 2003-04-21 03:03 pm (UTC)Oh yes, I would love that.
lobelia40@yahoo.com
C'mon, I'm a year older than you and I find it's quite nice being old AND fogey :-)
Heh. Actually, I revise my point. Because plenty of people are "old fogeys" chronologically but they've been online in various guises for such a long time that I think it's actually a matter of how long one has been online as opposed to how old one is. Er, where was my point? Oh, about catching up to the new internet relationships.
Well, I guess in internet terms I'm spring chicken newbie because I've only (only!) been part of this for 15 months - which seems like aeons to me but is nothing, really, compared to some people.
And I do love being fogey (ish!). Not for nothing did I found the Manly_Men list, *gg*. Note also my name. ;-p
But it's different when it comes to writing.
For me, the writing comes from an intimate 'gut' part of me that is activated hardly any place else. So showing it to people seems like a terribly opening-up thing to do.
Simply because I'm afraid it's fluff or pretentious or simply badly written.
Oh god, yes. I have that. I think, what, me? Can I be going gaga over such *girly* stuff? Then sometimes I read "girly" lines in so-called serious shop-bought literature and am amazed, and I think, maybe I'm being too harsh here.
And as long as I'm not totally convinced of what I've written I don't want to share it with RL people.
In a way, I find it worse when I *am* totally convinced -- or should I say, totally committed? Because something that's just been thrown off the cuff in an improv or something doesn't matter as much to me as something I pored and struggled over. I showed two fics to my husband, and he liked one and dismissed the other, got bored in fact and fell asleep. As a result, I disliked that story for ages, despite getting copious fb for it online. It was, in fact, my most personal story, very autobiographical -- and maybe there's just some part of me that is simply not accessible to t'hubster - who is, as I have discovered, not the be-all and end-all in literary criticism when it comes to fanfic, anyway. I am sometimes surprised to find that I have thought about some writing issues heaps more than he has.
Besides, I think it's not necessary that everyone knows EVERYTHING about me. But I can understand that you see this differently, especially if you no longer feel comfortable with the situation as it is.
Yes, I absolutely agree. But what I want to find out is to what extent I do want some things known. Because I have been keeping this whole online life so very rigorously secret. Maybe it's time to let some of it leak out.
Heh, I've been letting my rl leak into my online life, *g*.
Re: interactive thing
Date: 2003-04-22 01:42 pm (UTC)So. Very. True.
Simply because I'm afraid it's fluff or pretentious or simply badly written.
Oh god, yes. I have that. I think, what, me? Can I be going gaga over such *girly* stuff?
*laughs* Exactly. "Gaga" is a good term in this context. But well, one should perhaps simply stand by going gaga. Even if it's not considered as "appropriate" behaviour from a certain age onwards.
Then sometimes I read "girly" lines in so-called serious shop-bought literature and am amazed, and I think, maybe I'm being too harsh here.
I wonder whether that's because slash is written by women for women (at least mostly). And women most probably feel a stronger need to justify writing and consuming that kind of literature. And yes, sometimes I'm more than amazed at how little good writing it takes to write a bestseller.
In a way, I find it worse when I *am* totally convinced -- or should I say, totally committed.
I believe I wouldn't care so much *if* I actually was convinced. I can be very stubborn when it comes to certain things. Surely, it's hard to accept when exactly the person closest to you doesn't appreciate that part of your life so much. I very much agree with you that some parts are NOT accessible, but some parts of my husband are not accessible to me either. However, that's something I can live with easily. I wouldn't want a 100 % agreement, wouldn't that be terribly boring? And I want things that belong to me only, my preciousssssessss.
But what I want to find out is to what extent I do want some things known. Because I have been keeping this whole online life so very rigorously secret. Maybe it's time to let some of it leak out.
In any case, it's a courageous decision - good luck with finding out!
(no subject)
Date: 2003-04-21 06:59 am (UTC)there are some who are geographically impossible to meet, but i still love them anyway.
online becomes offline
Date: 2003-04-21 09:44 am (UTC)Oh absolutely. I used to be very wary of meeting online people, terrified even but now I tend to think it's a good thing. But I'm still wary of meeting someone I don't know that well online. Before meeting, I'd like to have emailed, read their fics, commented and posted copiously, seen a pic of them etc.
then there are complete nutters who turn out to be complete frauds, or will only witter on about that one shared interest, and you come away disappointed. meeting someone in real life changes things.
Yes, I'm so glad you found that. The thing is, I guess, that virtual people are all, in fact, Real People. Behind every pixellated icon and string of letters is a real woman somewhere on the globe, sitting at her desk, so inevitably you're going to get on with some and not with others. The interaction face 2 face is different, though. There's a whole range of rhetoric and humour and convention you can rely on for online communication that doesn't translate into f2f. So you have to find new modes, and sometimes it doesn't quite gel. Or you do end up talking only about the fandom but that can be OK, too.
that soap opera book
Date: 2003-04-21 07:10 am (UTC)cyndi
Re: that soap opera book
Date: 2003-04-21 09:46 am (UTC)And you were in that ratsa book? *chokes on coffee* Are you still in that group? And why do these usenet groups survive? Or do they branch off into yahoo lists or LJ communities as well? And is there not any fanfic re these soaps?
(no subject)
Date: 2003-04-21 08:48 am (UTC)Fandom hasn't replaced anyone for me. The only thing that is has replaced is television, which I now hardly ever watch, and that can only be a good thing. That's true in general I expect. TV ratings are in decline as the internet gets more popular.
I don't feel the need to admit to any RL people that I write slash. It is unacceptable to most people, and that is their problem. I see no reason to make it mine.
I am being a bit banal, but I'm not in a clever mood.
different parts
Date: 2003-04-21 09:50 am (UTC)Even in RL, I have different sorts of friends for different sorts of purposes, and they all know different parts of me. Fandom friends just know another part of me.
A very good point, yes. This is absolutely true.
The only thing that is has replaced is television, which I now hardly ever watch, and that can only be a good thing. That's true in general I expect. TV ratings are in decline as the internet gets more popular.
Heh, unless you're in a TV-dependent fandom, such as Buffy or Smallville. Still, you'd only need to devote an hour per week to it.
And yes, the internet has totally done away with TV for me. I do watch it occasionally to be sociable (this is how the times have changed! The once reviled medium of passive isolation has become today's hearth of sociable domesticity.)
I don't feel the need to admit to any RL people that I write slash. It is unacceptable to most people, and that is their problem.
I have kept my secret life absolutely secret, but I think I'm reaching the end of the line on that one. It's not making me feel so good, not at the moment anyway, I feel a need for greater integration. Not even necessarily the slash part which is, in a way, only a percentage of my online involvement, possibly even a minority one (much as my debauchery rating, alas). But if I could integrate the simple fact of online interactivity more, and filter the slash factor through to those who wouldn't faint from shock, that would be a good thing for me.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-04-21 09:56 am (UTC)The increased time spent online has really only cut into my television time, which I see as a positive development. Perhaps the only downside is that I also spend less time reading actual books, because I'm too busy reading smut on my friends list. :)
I'm not a super-social person to begin with, so my RL friendships aren't superseded one bit by online relationships. If anything, I've become a more social person because of them.
For the most part, I don't mind the double life. I've always had one, even long before the internet. Sure, it can be a bit stressful, but it's worth it to me to have something that's just mine. Over the past few weeks, I've had a few uncomfortable incidents that made me question this. I toyed with the idea of getting rid of any part of my life that I couldn't be completely open about. I quickly came to the conclusion that if I eliminated the LJ, the fandom, the slash, something else I couldn't share with everyone in RL would soon take its place. That's just me. Maybe some who are less introverted don't need this private, perverted space.
Sorry to ramble like this in your journal. You just really touched a nerve!
interesting topic
Date: 2003-04-21 03:12 pm (UTC)Due to so much negative publicity about the internet and how people's lives have been ruined because their web-surfing overrides their family and social responsibilites, I think it's very difficult to convince others that an online friendship can in its own way, be just as fulfilling as an RL one.
Yes, exactly! These are the stereotypes I came to the internet with! And it took me quite some months to get rid of the axe-murderer preconceptions and to figure out who all these people were and what they meant to me. Have you even met any online people yet? That was a big turning point for me. Although it brings its own problems and weirdnesses with it -- but on the whole it's salutary to remember that behind every pixellated icon of Orli (or of elven brooch, *g*) there is a real live individual.
The increased time spent online has really only cut into my television time, which I see as a positive development. Perhaps the only downside is that I also spend less time reading actual books, because I'm too busy reading smut on my friends list. :)
Oh yes, I watch barely any TV now, and I used to veg for hours. Thank god we're not a TV-based fandom, eh!
And in the first few months of slashdom, I practically stopped reading books altogether. But now the writing has had an interesting opposite effect: I read *more* novels than I have in many years, and I read them differently too -- with an eye for how they're put together, how these published writers *write*, and what I can take from them to use for myself. This makes even mediocre novels interesting. But I also chuck the really boring ones away sooner. I mean, if a novel can't at least be better than Domlijah domesticfic, I can't be bothered. And oh, those delicious moments when you suddenly come upon a slashy bit...!!
For the most part, I don't mind the double life. I've always had one, even long before the internet.
Yes, that is so interesting. Because I have, too, I think. So that the online life could slot into a prepared empty space that was already sitting there, ready for it. But I have always thought, and in a way still think, that this second life should be done away with, that it's somehow shameful and a weakness to have it and need it. Now I'm thinking maybe I needn't see it that way.
Over the past few weeks, I've had a few uncomfortable incidents that made me question this.
What were these uncomfortable things? And how did they make you question?
I toyed with the idea of getting rid of any part of my life that I couldn't be completely open about.
Does this have to do with the rl journal incident you mentioned a while back?
Re: interesting topic
Date: 2003-04-21 10:29 pm (UTC)Have you even met any online people yet? That was a big turning point for me.
Yes, I have! But not in this fandom. 6 girls I know (and one unfortunate but good-natured husband- not mine) from the Band of Brothers fandom had a get-together in Las Vegas last summer. It was a positive experience in ev ery way, except for perhaps the week-long hangover that followed *g* and I'm pretty sure that I'll stay very close friends with several of them for a very long time. We're already planning our next event. I love chatting and exchanging e-mails with peopl e I can visualize hanging out with IRL. As a result, I do tend to encourage people to make friends on the internet which does earn me some sideways glances from responsible adults!
But now the writing has had an interesting opposite effect: I read *mo re* novels than I have in many years, and I read them differently too -- with an eye for how they're put together, how these published writers *write*, and what I can take from them to use for myself. This makes even mediocre novels interesting.
I wo uld have to say I read less, but more selectively, and I definitely have a much better eye for the craft of writing. It took me quite a while to actually start writing fiction again, but I think just the act of reading and fb-ing fanfic put me mor e in tune with everything that goes into writing. I feel like a more educated fiction reader.
But I also chuck the really boring ones away sooner. I mean, if a novel can't at least be better than Domlijah domesticfic, I can't be bothered.
I'm g oing to try that one on a friend someday. "I couldn't finish this book because it really wasn't even as good as a DomLijah domesticfic." Hee. That would be one way to out myself.
And oh, those delicious moments when you suddenly come upon a slashy bit...!!
I think that's almost the most enjoyable part of all! Seeing the whole world through a slashy lense.
But I have always thought, and in a way still think, that this second life should be done away with, that it's somehow shameful and a weakness to have it and need it. Now I'm thinking maybe I needn't see it that way.
I'm still struggling with this as well. On the one hand, I really do feel that there isn't anything wrong with keeping a part of me hidden from everyone else. But I don't know where that comes from. I think it may very well be because my whole life I was accustomed to having interests and hobbies that most people couldn't relate to and got tired of defending them. And I've always been very much an introvert and not at all demonstrative. So perhaps it's not entirely healthy. But at this point I don't care all that much, because I've realized I can feel happy and balanced while still keeping part of me just for me. For me, I can tell it becomes unhealthy when the focus of my life is on the hidden part. It's trying to find just the right balance that's the hard part.
In addition, I think that modern society is biased toward the the un-gregarious and contemplative. Not to mention even the "publishing" of stories based on what is considered deviant sexual behavior. I think all of us are under a lot of pressure to conform, even by those who know and love us best. It's hard to buck the trend and not feel guilty.
(continued in next post)
Re: interesting topic
Date: 2003-04-21 10:38 pm (UTC)One was the rl journal incident. And on top of that, I had a close call at work last week, when someone walked into my office unexpectedly to find my web browser open to so me er, compromising text. I don't think they saw anything significant, but it did give me a good scare. It made me think that perhaps the fun isn't worth the stress. And I do think the whole idea of keeping a rl journal is history. That incident was just too painful. But I can't see myself giving all of it up for a little more peace of mind. It would feel almost like a betrayal of myself, like I was acting a part. Although I suppose many would argue that by concealing part of myself like th is, I ampresenting an untrue picture to the rest of the world. Aaaargh. *tears hair out*
Very interesting convo you've got going here!
??
(no subject)
Date: 2003-04-21 11:33 am (UTC)Same with my professional life, I've done ten-thousand-dollar consulting jobs for companies where I never had a physical meeting, just phone and email. They were happy, I didn't have to fly, it was lovely.
RPS is a little different for me, some combination of the content and my current life situation have really turned me into an obsessive and that's a bit scary. I love having a whole set of new friends but wish I could concentrate more on work.
the well?
Date: 2003-04-21 03:16 pm (UTC)Same with my professional life, I've done ten-thousand-dollar consulting jobs for companies where I never had a physical meeting, just phone and email.
Yes, that's an interesting point. That rl is not always face to face, either. Still, these business contacts maybe did not have the intense personal engagement aspect that online listsibs and fellow-slashers can have (for me, at any rate).
RPS is a little different for me, some combination of the content and my current life situation have really turned me into an obsessive and that's a bit scary.
O god, yes, it's the *addiction* side. I never used to think of myself as an addictive personality - I never smoked, I hardly drink, I never did drugs, yet here I am, glued to the internet. And you're right, it is a combination of community plus man-on-man thing (which I've had since the year dot) plus writing plus who knows what else. Still puzzling that one out.
Re: the well?
Date: 2003-04-21 04:07 pm (UTC)FidoNet was a set of Bulletin Board systems, local little conferences hooked together. All done at very slow dialup speeds like 1200 bps, text based, no pictures, but hey, we could talk. The Well is an early conferencing system, again it had a text interface and we used to pay horrific dialup fees, but it was the only way to build a community before the Net and the Web were widely available. There have been a couple of books written about The Well, and it's still going amazingly strong. I've known people there for 12 years and they are very dear to me.
As for addiction, I never was before. It's not the man-on-man thing for me (I'll read fem and het just as much as slash), it's a potent combination of sex, psychology and extraordinary writing. I'm glued to it too.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-04-22 02:21 am (UTC)I must say in the last 4 and a half days (pause for applause) I have felt more comfortable about being online because I know that I am not going to be writing or reading anything dodgy. This means I can go online with my door open. That I don't have to hurriedly shut windows when I hear t'BF coming up the stairs. That I don't have a guilty conscience. It's kind of nice not to be so furtive about it all. Whether I ever needed to be furtive about it all is a different matter.
I honestly can't ever see myself telling RL friends about all this. When I've broached the subject of fandom or online life it honestly has always been treated with great suspicion and funny looks, and I always feel inclined to just drop the subject. Maybe my RL friends are just not weird enough. And family? Hahahaha! Maybe my brother would be OK with it, but seeing as my sister once told me to "stop being such a lesbian!" when I volunteered the opinion that a woman on TV was good-looking, I don't think she'd be cool with the gay porn. So my attitude to people who are open about it to their friends is that it's good for them, but that wouldn't work for me.
I also kind of like having a compartmentalised life. If I was the same all the time it would drive me nuts; I like having Sensible Teacher me, and Stupid Home me, and Geeky Online me, and Slightly Less Geeky Introspective Online me, etc, etc.
I just don't think there's any reason why other people need to know what you do online; it makes them uncomfortable, it makes them see you differently and sometimes it's downright inappropriate.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-04-22 11:25 pm (UTC)and I sometimes get very frustrated for the false intimacy of online friendships. I don't mean feeling close to someone who doesn't feel the same but says so anyway; I mean feeling close to someone and not actually being close.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-04-23 11:21 am (UTC)All this is very mixed up in my mind at the moment. I know it's got more to do with how I feel about myself, and my life, and what I 'should' or 'shouldn't' be doing with it, than it has to do with anyone else. On the one hand, I really do like slash and fandom: I get a lot out of it and I like being a part of it. On the other, there's a little voice saying, "but it's silly... it's not 'proper'... it's embarrassing... it's a waste of time..."
I do think I need to find some kind of balance. It's true that people don't need to know everything about me. But I keep finding myself in situations where I'm actively lying, and I don't like that very much.
All very confusing and interesting. I wish I could think straight.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-07-31 03:00 am (UTC)anyway, sorry for taking over your lj and just posting randomly, but i like your brain :-)
(no subject)
Date: 2004-08-01 06:08 pm (UTC)And gulp, am always amazed to collect a comment on an ancient post! Amazed and delighted that someone else is mad enough to go scrolling through my ridiculous LJ.
And do you know any Jim Knopf fic? Or, even more droolworthy and my one and first and ultimate OTP: any Old Shatterhand/Winnetou??????
(no subject)
Date: 2004-08-02 02:04 am (UTC)no, your lj is great, and if i have learned one thing in collecting these links it is how mucvh we miss not only b/c folks aren't on our list but often just b/c that day our flist ran by too fast...you have some great essays and i linked several of them (so you might get another comment *g* i actually love getting comments on older threads, b/c i usually tend to have several issues that i'm working on, and it's not like the topic is suddenly of no interest any more simply b/c i wrote on it a few months back_
no, neither Jim Knopf nor Karl May fic...sorry :-) I know frogspace has some icons [only one at the moment, but i'm almost sure she used to have a few more] if I remember correctly, so she might be the person to ask.
so, you seem to be a fellow teacher...do you do any fanfic theory by any chance (b/c that's my ultimate goal *g*...to collect all fanfic theorists in one place...hahaha evil überacademic)
i'm sure i'll get to chat with you again sooner or later...since we're both in the fandom that ate the world now (and yes, the nitpicking text ananlyses drive me nuts...i mean, i'm freaking trained to do that and looking at the HP folks I wanna scream!!! then again, i just spent a bit of time looking at the H/Hr, Hr/R folks and their 'proving my ship' essays for a paper...omg!!!)
(no subject)
Date: 2004-08-09 11:07 am (UTC)Um, where was I? Oh yes, am academic at UK university. And am very flattered to find that narratological fanfic was linked because I got relatively little feedback on that. I'm told that it's because people might have felt intimidated (slashers don't usually get intimidated...) but if they're linking me, well, that's something nice!
since we're both in the fandom that ate the world now
*laughs and laughs*
Oh dear. How did we end up this way?
*goes off to ponder HP rps fps lotrips post of everything ever*
(no subject)
Date: 2004-08-18 03:13 am (UTC)and yes, haven't we all bemoaned the utter lack of new ideas (or rather the immense superiority of online thought...) well, it'd be nice to change that!!!