reading the iliad

[lobelia321]

I've just finished chapter 9 (Overtures to Achilles) so I'm a bit over 1/3 of the way through the Iliad.

Chapter 9 is moving. I found the Iliad a bit of a trial to get into. At first I was confused because you get flung in medias res and it took me a while to orient myself. Then, as orlisbunny pointed out, there ensues a lot of killing and battling and enumerating of deaths and bits of armour. But by now, ch. 9, I am quite enthralled by it.

Things to get used to: the use of adjectives (Iris is always "fleetfooted", every chariot is "well-made", every spear is "long-shadowed" -- which is rather lovely, actually). Perhaps these were mnemonic techniques designed to help in oral delivery -- as was the use of repetition, so that sometimes the same action will be reported in exactly the same words.

Also, the constant interference by gods and goddesses is something you have to get used to as a modern reader. I asked myself frequently, why do these guys bother to fight at all? What is the point when all your efforts are foiled by some goddess's trick (e.g. battle opponents whisked away at the last moment wrapped in a cloud).

What also surprised me was how unwilling the men seem to fight. On almost every page, there is mention of the men having to be cajoled and bullied into fighting. They're forever having to be mocked into taking arms and prevented from running away.

After getting used to the rhythm of it, I started to find the description of fighting quite compelling. The very repetitiveness evokes the relentlessness of going on and on and on.

A very poignant battle moment is the meeting of Diomedes (Achaean) and Glaucus (Trojan) on the field of battle. As they prepare to duel, they suddenly discover that their fathers know each other and that one of their fathers has played host to the other's father and been fond of him. They end up pledging friendship and exchanging armour. It is quite extraordinary; I was reminded of those early days of World War One when, at Christmas, enemy troops exchanged greetings and cigarettes in no-mans' land.

What I like a lot is that Homer doesn't take sides. My sons keep asking, who are the goodies and who are the baddies? But there are no goodies and baddies, only men. It's very humane that way.

So there are intrusions of godly whim and of domestic happiness all the time into the battle horror. Such as the friendship between Glaucus and Diomedes. Then there is a moving scene between Hector, his wife Andromache and his little son Astyanax. I know that Astyanax will be thrown to his death from the Trojan parapets by the Achaeans and Andromeda taken into captivity. And the audiences of Homer must have known this too, and this makes the scene so poignant. The baby is at first frightened by Hector's helmet and the plume on top, so he takes it off and dandles the child in his arms. The child smiles, and even Andromeda is moved to smile through her tears. He says to the child, and may you grow up strong to be a heroic warrior and so forth.

Then there is some marvellous interaction between Hector and his brother Paris. Paris is whisked away in a godly cloud and plonked into his "perfumed bedchamber" by Aphrodite where he proceeds to make love to Helen (who is actually starting to yearn for her Achaean husband and relatives but is won over by his charms). Later, Hector enters and sees Paris polishing his armour. Hector is forever berating Paris for being a nancy boy (hectoring him, in fact! That must be where that comes from.) and exhorts him to be a man and fight. Paris retorts, that his beauty and charm was given him by the goddess Aphrodite, and although he may not have chosen these gifts himself, it is not done to look down on a goddess's gifts -- a rather good reply, I thought.

Later, Paris is described putting on his armour and strutting down to the gates, like a newborn foal, proud of his good looks. It's just a marvellous contrast between the two brothers. But it's not a simple opposition, it's more subtle, because Paris does fight fiercely when he does finally fight, and kills many enemies at his brother's side, and Hector does end up telling him, sorry, I will make amends when all of this is over, I know you are a great warrior, really.

The scene where Odysseus and others try to get Achilles to fight again (chapter 9 which I just finished) is absolutely wonderful. Achilles says no and argues in an almost modern pacifist way. But he is also full of resentment and rage at having had his beloved Briseis stolen from him by Agamemnon; he's implacable.

When Odysseus et al first enter Achilles' hut, there's this wonderful scene:

He [Achilles] was singing of famous men and accompanying himself on a tuneful lyre, a beautifully ornamented instrument with a silver crossbar, which he had chosen from the spoils when he destroyed Eetions' city. He was alone but for Patroclus, who was sitting opposite with his eyes on Achilles, quietly waiting for him to stop singing.

Isn't that beautiful? This quiet moment, hinting at other sides of the warrior - he can play the lyre, he loves beautiful things, and he keeps averring how much he loves Briseis - and the lovely, simple description of Patroclus with his eyes on Achilles.

Am worried that Petersen will spoil this story. But then a true classic is spoiler-resistant. No matter how many bad adaptations of Jane Austen I see, after all, I still adore her books.

Things that already annoy me about the Petersen film: Apparently, he's removed the gods. Annoyment number 1. He's also aged everyone down. I mean, the action in the Iliad takes place 19 years after Helen's abduction. Say, Paris was 20 when he stole her away: that makes him almost 40 by the time we get to the Iliad. Orlando Bloom does not look 40. If Petersen has done it to bring out the pretty-brother thing, fine -- though I remain suspicious. thejennabides tells me that Patroclus, who btw is older than Achilles and who is Achilles' squire and friend, has been demoted to "beloved cousin" in the script. *vomits quietly into nearby potplant*

Anyway, will post more musings as I continue to read.

Comments

[cangetmad.livejournal.com]

Perhaps these were mnemonic techniques designed to help in oral delivery -- as was the use of repetition, so that sometimes the same action will be reported in exactly the same words.

Yeah, that's what I was always told they were for. In the Odyssey, the bit that I studied for Greek GCSE (Odysseus in the Cyclops' cave) has a whole passage that repeats, about how Polyphemus killed and ate two men for each meal. Which pleased me, since I had to remember the passage for translation in the exam. And their brains ran out onto the earth. Ideal for 15-year-olds.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I can see that bit about the brain running out! Thank you.

[cinzia.livejournal.com]

Perhaps these were mnemonic techniques designed to help in oral delivery -- as was the use of repetition, so that sometimes the same action will be reported in exactly the same words.
Oh, yes, they most assuredly were -- in fact, sometimes you even get the same simile, (almost) word for word...

What also surprised me was how unwilling the men seem to fight. On almost every page, there is mention of the men having to be cajoled and bullied into fighting. They're forever having to be mocked into taking arms and prevented from running away.
I guess, after 10+ years sitting outside Troy's walls, they were kinda bored with the whole, pointless thing... ;)

But there are no goodies and baddies, only men. It's very humane that way.
So true! Well, except Agamemnon *stabs him* and the gods, probably. But the gods aren't exactly 'bad'... just mean, and petty, and childish.

And that scene with Patroclus! Oh, yes, just YES. One of my favourites in all of Homer. It's just so lyrical, and so quiet and melancholic, in the middle of a battle field... The way Patroclus just sits there, looking at Achilles. It's one of those moments you read and it gets burned forever into your mind, almost as if you had seen it. Or, er, that's what happened to me. ;)

He's also aged everyone down.
That, and the Patroclus thing... BIG pet peeves. Of course, one could always argue that people back in the Bronze Age counted time in a different manner, and who knows how long a 'year' really was? But all the same. Eric Bana as Hector?! That pretty blond boy (can't remember the name) as Patroclus?! *sighs*

Anyway, will post more musings as I continue to read.
And I'm looking forward to hear them! I'm so happy you're loving the book! *hugs* :)

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

I haven't got to a stabworthy Agamemnon bit yet. So far all he's done is stride about sternly and get up Achilles' nose. But the Patroclus/Achilles scene!!!! It's true what you say: it's just two lines but they burn themselves into your brain, absolutely. Especially after having waded through pages of battle action, this is just so unexpectedly gentle and tender.

Garrett Hedlund or something is Patroclus.

I guess they picked Bana for the same reasons they picked him for Hulk: they saw *Chopper* and thought, here's a guy who's good at doing rage.

[msilverstar]

It's been so many years since I read the Iliad, I really ought to read it again, out loud. Which translation are you using?

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Penguin classics. E.V. Rieu, 1950s prose translation. It's very good. I hate it when they try and duplicate hexameters in translation. It also does away with pseudo-ye oldey-antiquey language and just uses modern words.

I read some of it aloud to the family: it lends itself extremely well to this (as one would expect!).

[celiaka.livejournal.com]

Things to get used to: the use of adjectives (Iris is always "fleetfooted", every chariot is "well-made", every spear is "long-shadowed" -- which is rather lovely, actually).

I just finished the Odyssey, and in it dawn is always 'rosey fingered' and everyone is always talking 'in words that flew'. Who's translation are you reading?

In Troy we can not really expect them to stay true to the Iliad. Judging by the casting they are making a film that is purely holllywood entertainment. To lose the gods seems a bit much, but they may be wanting to focus on the man side of things and treat it as a non supernatural war story. Shame that Patroclus will not share Achilles' bed. Ah well, anything runied in the film can be corrrected in fan-fiction. There probably already is Iliad slash out there. It's canon!

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

I'm reading Penguin classics, E.V. Rieu, 1950s prose translation. It's very good.

Ah well, anything runied in the film can be corrrected in fan-fiction.
Abso-fucking-bloody-lutely! Let's just hope that Achilles/Garrett will be worth it. Brad is so *straight* that there's got to be potential there!

[dantana.livejournal.com]

Things to get used to: the use of adjectives (Iris is always "fleetfooted", every chariot is "well-made", every spear is "long-shadowed" -- which is rather lovely, actually). Perhaps these were mnemonic techniques designed to help in oral delivery -- as was the use of repetition, so that sometimes the same action will be reported in exactly the same words.

The use of epithets was so that the poet would be able to fill out the meter requirements for dactylic hexameter. There are only a couple of epithets per noun, and they're used whenever the person singing the poem would need to fill in the line.

The use of repetition of large passages (like the preparations for sailing the ships, or of sports) are like formulas, something that the poet would be able to recite while trying to figure out what he was going to sing next.

In my Orality and Literacy class last year we looked at The Odyssey and we discussed these things. It was wonderful. I've also started reading The Iliad, but things keep getting in the way, so I'm only finished with the first book (and the introduction that went over this stuff and a lot of other themes.)

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Is that Ewan in your icon? *flutters* (I've seen his penis! I've seen his penis!)

Ahem.

Thank you for this info re singing hexameters. That is very interesting. And makes sense.

[dantana.livejournal.com]

Actually it's my current favourite (nonLotR) actor, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau.

An interesting tidbit: he starred in Nattevagten, a Danish suspense/thriller that was later remade in America as Nightwatch, starring Ewan McGregor. I haven't seen either, but according to reviews the original was much more suspenseful. The reviewer also mentioned how much McGregor looked like Coster-Waldau.

Another tidbit: they were both in Black Hawk Down (but not in any scenes together).

I nearly fell over when I thought you meant you had seen Nikolaj's penis.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

omg, am befuddled and confused by all these Ewan/Nikolaj cross-overs. Where is this Nikolaj in BHD?? What other films is he in?

And no, it's Ewan's penis I've seen, of course. But haven't we all?

[dantana.livejournal.com]

Oooh! Now I get to be all geeky and try and spread the Nikolaj love.

In Black Hawk Down he played Gary Gordon (one of the two Delta's that went in to defend Mike Durant at the second crash site) earlier in the movie he can be seen playing chess and drinking beer (or a pop. something in a can).

He's also in Enigma (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0157583), as the Polish codebreaker. A pretty good movie.

Those are the only two movies of his I've seen. I'm waiting not-so-patiently for 24 heures dans la vie d'une femme (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0229187) to come out in my city (I think it's been out for a while in Europe). He's also going to be in Wimbledon (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0360201), but imdb doesn't say in what role or anything. He's also in Bent (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0118698), which I hope to see soon.

Most of his other movies are Danish ones that I don't know if I'll ever get to see. All of them can be found here (http://us.imdb.com/Name?Coster-Waldau,%20Nikolaj).

(I haven't seen Ewan's penis.)

[dantana.livejournal.com]

It was the first pic of Ewan I saw on my hard drive.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Eeeeek!

*stares*

[viva-gloria.livejournal.com]

Re the age question, Achilles is also very young at the time of the Iliad (and yes, Patroclus is older than him): I think he's in his late teens when Odysseus recruits him, so even by the end of the war he'd be under 30.

May I recommend the very wonderful Achilles, by Elizabeth Cook, when you've finished with the Iliad? Apart from omitting the good stuff Achilles/Patroclus relationship, it's lovely. Amazon

Also recommended: Troy, by Adele Geras. Allegedly a children's book, but absolutely fascinating exposition of the role of various gods. And a good depiction of everyday life in a city under seige. Amazon

Those little verbal repetitions -- 'bright-haired Achilles', 'hurrying down to ades' (varying from translation to translation) -- act rather like icons, to remind the listener of a character as much as to prompt the bard.

Must write more classics-slash ...

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the tips. And I've got used to, even fond of, the repetitions now. In fact, I'd miss them if they weren't there. So how long is it between recruiting Achilles and his death? As I understand, there are 19 years between Helen's kidnapping and the end of the Iliad so Achilles must have been recruited right at the end of the 9-year preparation period? His youth also explains his hot-headedness then. And makes a mockery of Brad Pitt (40) vs Orlando Bloom (26). I mean, Paris was *not* aged 7 when he stole Helen. And Garrett as Patroclus.

Well, enough. There'll be plenty of opportunity to do Petersen-bashing once we've seen the damn thing. Heh.

At the moment, I'm quite enjoying Nestor's constant ramblings about what a hotshot he was in youth. Bizarrely, I am reminded of Jane Austen.

[viva-gloria.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I'd forgotten how long it was between Helen's abduction and the end of the war. Perhaps Achilles could be that old, after all.

Like other well-known movie adaptations of great literary epics, I'm not expecting a 'film of the book': for one thing he's leaving out the gods ... But I'll be interested to see what he makes of the characterisation!

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

I have tiny hopes for Iliad. All I'm going to be interested in: will we get to see Orlando's penis?