rps dilemma: is karl bad?

[lobelia321]

Recently, blythely told me that she knows somebody (a woman) who was propositioned by Karl at a party in NZ, and Karl was being very persistent in a not-very-nice way.

This threw me into great confusion.

Confusion nr. 1:
I do not like my slashy men to become too real. I don't like it if anyone I know actually knows someone who knows the person irl. Slashman, get thee back to fantasy realm and into my fics, where you belong!

Confusion nr. 2:
What characterisation do I go with? Do I cleave to my own characterisation of Karl-as-lovable-dag? Or do I switch to new characterisation of Karl-as-irritating-penis-wielder? Do I twist my brain into a knot by somehow amalgamating the irritating-wielder to the lovable-dag and pretending they are one and the same? Or do I twist my brain into a hitch by somehow pretending to myself that I adore irritating-penis-wielder ("o Karl, wield it at me", in pathetic Mary-Sue fashion)?

And is there a rule that says that real-life characterisation must be privileged above fanon characterisation?

This just goes to prove that I must never be let out of my cage actually to come into rl contact with any of these people. The 'real' in 'real person slash' evidently stumps and bamboozles me. Digital droolpic? I can handle that. Real person? Whoa.

Lesson to be learned: NZ is just too small a country. Everyone knows everyone. I sympathise now with cupiscent who said she would never slash an Australian (and then promptly broke her rule but I know why...)


Strangely, I do not think I would be perturbed by similar revelations about Derek Benfield...

Comments

[badgermonkey.livejournal.com]

This comment is not about Karl. It is about DB. Inspired by your final remark, I got googling again (yes! Shirking. Who cares?) and found interesting things:

a) "Derek's first professional appearances were for Brian Rix in Ilkley and Bridlington." Yes! It all happens here.

b) Do you want to go to Antwerp? We could see De Deur Staat Open in Flemish!

c) Or how about In Der Klemme somwhere in Germany?

d) Or maybe a trip to Italy to see Colto in Fragante? (I don't know what that means, but it sounds wonderful.)

If only we were ladies of leisure + untold wealth! We could have a hoot travelling Europe watching bad plays.

[ia-ne.livejournal.com]

Somewhere in Germany seems to be Hamburg. there's no address anywhere on the site, but I'm very clever and had a look at the telephone number. Which you could travel to from England very cheap by ferry.

Come on, you know you want to! I could stalk you two...

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

*giggles*

Are you near Hamburg? Or am I supposed to know that already?

[ia-ne.livejournal.com]

If I put my address on the Kaetzchen envelope, then yes *g*. I'm in Hannover, not too far away from Hamburg.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

No, you veiled yourself in mystery! *g*

Have listened to the CD btw, can't remember whether I told you. Quel hoot!

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

You know, of course, that the Benfield-addendum was pure and unashamed Dembaiting? Hence the putting it outside the LJ cut.

I am so immoral.

And it worked!

I vote for Flemish. It's by far the most ridiculous language of the lot. And German and Italian at least one of us might actually understand.

June 2004, eh? Get savin'.

You know, that Flemish site is *so* provincial it does not even list the city where the Noordteater is located.

[badgermonkey.livejournal.com]

I feel so used.

Of course, whether we understand the language or not, it wouldn't matter, because we could bring copies of the plays with us to read from as they went along! Which also has the advantage of letting us ascertain the degree of textual accuracy of the production and if it adheres strictly enough to DB canon. Is Marjorie wearing black trousers when the stage instructions clearly say she should be in pink? Is Gordon drinking Scotch when he should be owning Drambuie? These are very important matters. We could write critiques. We could become the world's leading authorities on the life and works of DB. (Actually, I think we just about *are*.)

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

I laughed so hard at this I could barely see the screen. Subtitle-synch-reading is almost like going to the opera and seeing the translation scroll by on that big overhead LED thingy.

We could become the world's leading authorities on the life and works of DB. (Actually, I think we just about *are*.)
After the tears of mirth cleared from my face, I felt positively scared.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Oh, and I forgot to sputter in appropriate fashion: Bridlington???

You are clearly meant to Mary Sue DB!

God, what happened to all my Wainthropp icons? Usurped by tb, that's what. He whose looks are fast fading. (It's almost like Jane Austen.)

[asynje.livejournal.com]

(barging in to agree)
*hear hear*
Have spent much time trying to put great distance between ViggoInMyHead (meowrrr) and ViggoInBookstore who made me want to fetch him a blanket, cups of chamomile tea, and show him to a nice dark corner in which to hide.
Very disturbing that. AT least as far as smut is concerned.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

I am relieved to find that others have had similar near-death experiences as regards the 'r' in 'rps'. I may have to found a club called 'putting the f back into r' or some other such esoteric and insiderish allusion.

An interesting lesson, this. Fandom clearly has its limits for me. Am only a ficfan at heart.

[cupiscent.livejournal.com]

This is something that's actually been occupying my thoughts a bit, lately. Real!characterisation versus my!characterisation. How much does character in RPS depend on real action? How much should I try and match my character to what I know of real actions?

Fuck-all, I concluded. Which I'm sure surprises no one. *g*

One of the things that made me take a delighted running leap into Lotrips (though I didn't realise it at the time) was the freedom of this fandom. There is practically no canon. Or rather, while there are canon basic characters, situations, concepts, canvases to be painted upon, those canvases are blank. Unlike fiction-fandoms, which must conform to the actions and details of the canon material, episode after episode.

Let me give examples:

When I left X-Men, I was mired in a story concept that was being hemmed in on all sides by canon. I wanted to write a story about this bit in the Ultimate comics where Cyclops gets transparent glasses, and I wanted to deal with Storm's reaction to being able to see his eyes. But I couldn't just deal with that item in isolation, because I had to explain how their relationship fit between the events of every issue of the comic, and then more issues came out and the writer fucked with my idea left, right and centre. Too hard. I gave up.

On the other hand, I got inspired by Viggo and Karl arriving at a premiere together. Since all of this is utter fiction anyway, I saw no problem with ignoring every other detail that's been delivered of their public behaviour in any other incident ever. I can take what I want from here, there and everywhere, and build character and events for this fic alone, a framework that can be entirely discarded once the construction for which it served is finished.

That might be just me, though.

Personally, I find the aspect of Karl as bogan-bastard-sleaze wickedly amusing, and have tucked it away in the mental scrapbook for potential future use. It's an interesting take. Unusual.

But hey, if it doesn't work for the Karl you want to write for a story, forget about it. These aren't real people. They're characters. When they become real, I can't write about them. (Hence, yes, the no-Aussies rule. Miranda is distant enough to escape, but the idea of slashing, say, Wenham is just... very disturbing.)

That might be just me, though. And we all know about me.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

This is absolutely fascinating. I loved reading this. Why don't you live down the road from me?

the freedom of this fandom. There is practically no canon
Being such a relative slash virgin I find this really interesting. Because Lotrips is really the only fandom I know really well. And it's very interesting to hear how things are elsewhere. I know that the rampant Smallville brigade turned me away from trying my hand at Clark/Jonathan because they market themselves as such Guardians of the Canon. And that's something that doesn't happen in Lotrips - there's the tinhat faction, to be sure, but they are almost like amusing pets, corralled off in their little world and devoted to providing the rest of us with amusing rants to read.

I saw no problem with ignoring every other detail that's been delivered of their public behaviour in any other incident ever. I can take what I want from here, ... a framework that can be entirely discarded once the construction for which it served is finished.
This I found the most interesting bit in your comment. And it absolutely chimes in with everything I do in this fandom and with what others seem to be doing. Nobody joins the dots. Karl/Viggo in Japan immediately erases from the memory bank every configuration of Viggo/Orli (e.g.) that anybody has ever seen. One clip of Orli canoodling up to Bean generates an entire world of Orlibean that bears no relation to the entire parallel world of, say, Viggobean that overlaps it chronologically.

This is such an accurate insight. And makes me feel much better about simply slotting fuck-off-Karl into a similar parallel universe. They're all bunny-worthy!

[ia-ne.livejournal.com]

I'm really fond of your lovable-dag Karl, but I'd love to see you tackle irritating-penis-wielder Karl (dear god) as well.

Actually I've never read any interview with Karl, hardly looked at pictures of him, and never watched a movie with him other than TTT. So my idea of Karl is almost totally built up on yours and a few other stories. Isn't that strange?

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

No, that is not strange. This is, after all, how I got to know Karl: Entirely via Brenda's Fun & Games. I had read half of that series before I even clapped my eyes on a picture of the man. And this was all pre-TTT so no interviews for miles.

[marysiak.livejournal.com]

1. Yes, when rps chars invade reality it freaketh me out and maketh me panic.

2. Persistant is only annoying when you're not interested in someone, when you are it's cute. Thus men cannot win as it pays to be persistant if the person is just being coy/uncertain but labels you an ass if they really mean it and how the hell do you know which is which?

3. Best ignore reality, is scary.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Persistant is only annoying when you're not interested in someone, when you are it's cute.

*giggles* Yes, persistence is entirely in the eye of the beholdrix. Possibly.

[bunnysquee.livejournal.com]

Karl-as-irritating-penis-wielder

*laughing too hard to make coherent comment*

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

*stares at icon, makes sounds with own mouth, has attack of hysterical laughter*

Pth indeed!! (Elvish for "hail, o mighty warrior" I'm sure -- yes, it is, indeed, Sindari for "sorry, that fart was mine").

[bunnysquee.livejournal.com]

ARGH! i'm at work right now - i really shouldn't be trying to imagine you going PTH! *hiding under desk giggling like a mad thing*

[msilverstar]

One piece of second-hand information shouldn't change your entire approach, I'm convinced of that.

I very much enjoy writing stories that fit with what I know of the people, but you always have to pick and choose. And some of my favorite stories have very very little to do with reality. ((I tried writing a superior, hypocritical and nasty Viggo. I couldn't do it.)

More when I wake up properly.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Oh, all very interesting what people are saying. I know that one piece of 2nd hand gossip (as Brenda endearingly calls it) should not change 1 1/2 years' worth of accumulated ficdom but it just threw me off balance there for a bit.

However, it was worth it just to participate in this thread!

[azewewish.livejournal.com]

2ndhand gossip should alwaysalwaysalways be treated with bleach & left out to dry in the sun.

In other words, forget about it & write what you want. You weren't there at this party, you didn't witness it. Karl's a man, and, as all men, he's going to have moments in his life where he behaves like a pig (that's assuming the story's true). Doesn't make him any less the great, funny, warm-hearted guy that *I* met. All it does is make him human. And I prefer my men (on page & RL) to be human.

It's all about the men, good bad & ugly.

*nods*

[fragilebroken.livejournal.com]

Brilliantly stated.

*nodding excitedly*

Exactly what she said.

We're writing characters and in the situations that we're writing, we're making up situations that we have no idea how they would actually act. In other words, we're making up the characterizations regardless of RL (wives, girlfriends, childrens, anything that would point to leading a relatively hetero life).

Just write what's in your head, second hand gossip be damned! It has no bearing on FICTION. Or at least, I don't think that it should have any bearing.

erm... blame the ramble on the chocolate coffee. ;)

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Yes! How could I forget about the girlfriends and wives? *giggles* Actually, the one thing I liked about the fuck-off-Karl gossip, is that it's evidence of heterosexual leanings! And I just find heterosexual leanings so sexily slashy!

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Oh, I love this thread! This is all so interesting and I'm gleaning so many insights.

I like what you say about 2nd hand gossip (and am wondering now about 1st hand gossip -- which can't exist, can it? Because gossip must be, by definition, 2nd or 3rd hand, must it not?).

Karl's a man, and, as all men, he's going to have moments in his life where he behaves like a pig
But *this* is what I like best! Yes! Oh yes! Karl's a man and men are pigs (sometimes). *laughs uproariously*

*wipes tears*

Yeah, that sounds much like the sort of thing I tend to spout at t'hubster when I feel like mocking his (and the sons') debilitating Y-chromosome. And then I go and write about the debilitants fucking each other senseless. *cackles some more*

Oh, isn't life as a binary-sexed species grand!

It's all about the men, good bad & ugly.

Yes, yes and thrice yes! *bangs fist on table in agreement* Abso-fucking-lutely. *tattoos this as motto on forehead* And not about the pretty doing the dishes!!

[karelian]

No! Next someone is going to offer evidence that Sean Bean is not gay!

No, seriously? Go with what you want to go with -- not canon, not other people's fanon -- and make it convincing within your story, and that is all that matters. (You made Orli boring convincingly; how hard can it be to ignore a possible single instance of skanky!Karl?)

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Well, as I said to fragilebroken above, it's the heterosexual element in the gossip that I actually warm to! Because I find heterosexual leanings just so very, very slashy! So Bean, by all means, please stay straight!

And to compare boring!Orli to fuck-off-Karl -- *has crossover rps/rl laughing attack*

Am still amazed how boring!Orli has become this *thing* that people refer to...

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Well, as I said to fragilebroken above, it's the heterosexual element in the gossip that I actually warm to! Because I find heterosexual leanings just so very, very slashy! So Bean, by all means, please stay straight!

And to compare boring!Orli to fuck-off-Karl -- *has crossover rps/rl laughing attack*

Am still amazed how boring!Orli has become this *thing* that people refer to...

[sheldrake.livejournal.com]

My instinct would be to say your original characterisation is perfectly valid, so go with it. I think that's because I seem to have developed a personal rule whereby I base all my characterisation, as far as possible, on the public image a real person chooses to project, though interviews, photos etc. So, for instance, if someone were to come up and tell me that they'd met aphid expert Dr Richard Harrington in a public lavatory, and he wasn't the rugged, gravel-voiced veteran of the Luxembourg potato fields I'd assumed him to be, but a small blond man with distressing acne, I'd feel quite jusified in ignoring that information for fic purposes.

Then again, if you find yourself inspired to write a 'fuck off Karl' fic as well, why not? Sounds good. You can have more than one Karl, can't you? You could have a brace of them.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

*laughs almost to the limits of certifiability*

What a glee-making comment! *laughs some more and falls off chair*

But I am also shocked, shocked beyond compare, at the mere possibility of rugged Richard turning out to be less than aphidly wonderful.

I just can't contain myself at the comparison of fuck-off-Karl to rugged Dr Harrington. You know what is the scariest thing? We *could* actually run into him somewhere! He probably travels on WAGN!

And you're right: it's all bunny-worthy. As far as the bun-buns are concerned, there is no discernible difference between the penis-wielding irritator and the gooey-eyed man in Japan.

a personal rule whereby I base all my characterisation, as far as possible, on the public image
Very nice, that. *ponders*

Oh, I love this fandom! It's just so irreverent and sensible!

[sheldrake.livejournal.com]

Oh, I love this fandom! It's just so irreverent and sensible!

I need that on an icon. You do beget the best threads, Lobelia. Right, I'm going to bed now.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

You do beget the best threads

Thank you. I love this absurdly.

*goes to change lj-user name*

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

You do beget the best threads

Thank you. I love this absurdly.

*goes to change lj-user name*

[childeproof.livejournal.com]

I know what you mean. A friend of mine who works in a bar got hassled by Sean Bean a while back, and while every one else was shocked she'd turned him down, I was drawing aside my skirts from the whole affair in case it tarnished MY Sean. Because I am a fragile slash-flower who must be protected from the depredations of RL Sean.

Mind you, my partner met the Slash Hero of a mutual friend who is a football slasher, and had to contend the entire evening with a series of frantic texts from said friend asking detailed questions about the nape of his neck and knuckles...

I could NEVER slash an Irish person. Waaay too small. There are only about 2 degrees of separation between any two Irish people. Colin Farrell slash KILLS me, because, without ever talking to the guy, I nearly know him via about four different routes. Yerk.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

*cackles hysterically at football nape information*

Oh yes, and the degrees of separation... Sometimes it's a blessing to live in the UK and away from the hive of NZ or LA. *g*

[yellow-oranges.livejournal.com]

Why not a "cathartic fuck-off-karl fic"? might be um, cathartic! ;)

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

I am really itching to write one now, mainly because it promises such subversive potential. And fun with people getting pissed off.

But I have too much else on my plate! It will have to wait. There is DP and boring!Orli and a bad John/Jed that needs revision and an unfinished Karl/Dom, not to mention rl!