pointless thoughts on...

[lobelia321]

To me, het bears an odd relationship to slash. But more on that in a minute.

First, het by itself (as rediscovered by me in Bollywood). The alluring thing about het is that it is so mainstream and so burdened with tradition. This means that a lot of stuff can go unsaid because it can be taken for granted. Man sees beautiful woman? Of course, man falls in love with her. Woman sees man fall in love with her? Of course, she flutters eyelids coyly. Or: woman falls in love with girlhood friend and loyally awaits his return for many years. He returns: of course, he is all suave and worldly wise; of course, she is flutter-hearted and makes veiled allusions; of course, he jokes; of course, she confesses her all-consuming love; of course, he rebuffs her at first until he finally gives in and confesses his undying love as well (taken from Devdas).

See what I mean? It's predictable. Everyone has assigned roles: demure girl, wanton slut, bitchy sister-in-law, tyrannical father, man who must hide his love behind the face of duty, and so forth.

The thing I love about Bollywood movies is that the het is all out there. The women are impossibly and otherwordlily beautiful, and the men quiver with passion. But the women characters are also very strong, giving scope to female stars, a bit like Hollywood in the 1940s. The emotions are noble, the finales grand, tears flow freely and love rules hearts. And all of it is so grandiose and OTT that it can sometimes topple and laugh at itself.

Is het slashy? As such, it is not -- not to me, anyway. But it can be slashified. I have read fics (cupiscent's Plumbing and cinzia's De Amore come to mind) that slashify het. That make het seem weird and non-mainstream and perverse (and I love that!). So in a way slashified het is the opposite of Bollywood het.

Why don't I like other mainstream het? (In the media, that is. Irl, I think, I'm basically fairly het - that is, I don't think I've got more bisexual leanings than do all of us -- which is more than the het-hegemony world would like us to think!) Maybe the exoticism of Bollywood veils the rl patriarchy that sits behind the coulisses in a way that Hollywood can't because I can see through it more. But somehow neither Hollywood nor arty movies manage to make het *sexy* for me; they don't eroticise it.

I was talking to thejennabides the other day, trying to think of the sexiest het movie scene I'd ever seen. It was very difficult to come up with anything. Because I found Y tu Mama tambien sexy - but hey, whaddayaknow, it's got *boys kissing*! But pure het?

- Bed and Sofa, directed by Abram Room, 1927, Soviet silent film (It's ridiculous that I have to go back this far!) - very erotic scene using a pack of cards: *she* puts down a queen of hearts face up, *he* covers it with a jack of hearts, *I* essploded in the cinema

- I did remember another one today but now I've forgotten it! Ack, how absurd am I?? Will append as soon as it re-emerges in my sieve-for-brain.

And in literature? I will think of examples in another post!

Comments

[freyafloyd.livejournal.com]

Well, that raised a lot of questions!

I do not understand at all what you mean by slashify het. I would like you to explain.

It made me wonder what I mean by slash. Slash at a simple level is about romantic or sexual realtionships or feelings in same sex relationships. Obviously it is more than that, as it would seem that very few gay men read slash. Slash is about same sex relationships, but it is written in a way that appeals to women, either by covering the aspects of a relationship that appeal to women, using language and style in a way that appeals to women, or sometimes by dispensing with any kind of reality altogether and entirely inserting women's minds into men's bodies.

Still it is more than this as well. Slash writers often inflict huge amounts of pain on their characters. There are many people who want to read that kind of thing, and I think on some level it is meant to be a metaphor. I am sure that is how I am reading Zarah's colour loss fic.

I don't understand how het can be slashified. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but I'd like to know what you mean by slash in order to understand what you mean about het.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Slashify het. What I mean by this is perhaps best explained via examples. E.g. Dee's Plumbing: Dom turns into Liv and has sex with Viggo. Now that is to me majorly slashy but it's also (technically) het but not a mainstream het, a perversely twisted and slashified het. And Cinzia's De Amore: Karl has sex with Miranda but we get these lines:

He is open, and he feels empty.
... still spreads his legs for her.

That, to me, is also slashifying het. It imports tropes from slash into a het encounter; it also imports tropes from het romance (applied to women) and applies them to a man.

Does that sort of clarify what I mean? I can't come up with an actual *definition* right now. *hits brain*

And yes to all you say about slash and women. Absolutelam. And the pain thing: will ponder. Is it because we smuggle Mary Sues in through the backdoor? Or is angst some kind of feminine fictional *need*?

I suppose by slashified het, I wasn't thinking of any special definition of slash but just about some sort of het that in my mind amenables itself to slash (I know that's not a word but I can't come up with a better one right now) in some way, that's het but not-het, that turns het inside out and examines het's mainstream assumptions.

[sheldrake.livejournal.com]

I've come to the conclusion that I'm actually quite easy to please. All it really takes to 'slashify' het for me is the vaguest whisper of an obstacle. It could be oldest, silliest, most predictable trick in the book, I don't care. Suggest to me that there's a reason these two people really ought not to be getting it on, and I'll happily believe it for the duration. You know -- he's her teacher, they're partners in the FBI, their families are at war, she's married, he's dead, she's a budgerigar, one of them has no head, etc etc. Easily pleased, that's me.

On the other hand, perhaps the very need for het to be 'slashified' in the first place says otherwise.

"slashify"

[pippinspeach.livejournal.com]

see, though - this to me doesn't make sense because het cannot be slashified...slash is strictly same sex. It can be really well done het, or intriguing het, or nasty, kinky, obstacle-ridden het, but if it's not same sex, it's not slash.

Re: "slashify"

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

It's not slash but see my comment above: it is slash too. Dom in the body of Liv being fucked by Viggo: that is slash. Although it's technically het. (Dee's Plumbing) See what I mean? It's that borderline phenomenon.

Re: "slashify"

[sheldrake.livejournal.com]

What I meant by 'slashified' het (probably not, on reflection, what Lobelia was getting at) was representations of het (whether het fanfic or het in the media) that give me similar sorts of feelings to those I get from reading slash. Slash (m/m) seems to be what suits me best. I can enjoy het and f/f, but it doesn't happen as often or as easily. Now I've gone and contradicted my original comment and my brain hurts...

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Hm.

[sheldrake.livejournal.com]

I'm going to take that as my signal to bow out of this debate before I do my brain any lasting damage.

[freyafloyd.livejournal.com]

Why I don't like het....

I do not consider myself to be a feminist. This is just how I feel on this one particular issue. I don't like het because women are treated as sex objects in real life and in the media. I cannot view most depictions of heterosexual sex without a cloud of hatred of women hanging over it. Even if the depiction itself does not contain this, it will still be there in my mind, due to being constantly surrounded by it in society. I cannot view the sex in a sexual way because of this.

In addition to this, unless I am able to completely Mary-Sue the female character, I don't feel sexually interested in the sex because I am too straight. I have no sexual interest in women, and therefore have no interest in seeing a woman have sex.

This always leads me on to wondering why lesbians (not bisexuals)like male slash. I would be really interested in hearing why.

As for the Bollywood thing, I can understand that being more appealing. I can find het sex between gods more appealing because it is mythic, and allows me to dispense with the sexist cloud. Bollywood has the same mythic element in a way. Unfortunately this does not make hot sex in my mind. It is mythic sex, not nasty porn sex. It is the John William Waterhouse of the sex world.

trying again...stupid LJ

[pippinspeach.livejournal.com]

(third try to post this; sorry if it's a duplicate)

don't like het because women are treated as sex objects in real life and in the media. I cannot view most depictions of heterosexual sex without a cloud of hatred of women hanging over it.

Wow, you have just summed up my entire view of life, hehe. This is why I sometimes wish I was gay -- either male or female. If I could enjoy women sexually, or if I could have the sex I enjoy without the inevitable m/f bullshit coming about, that would be ideal.

Sadly...it never seems to happen that way.

I've written het sex, but usually I just allude to it because the sex scenes turn me off unless there is some form of kink and/or it is written VERY well or has some kind of psychological undertone to it that is intriguing. Same thing - I'm not turned on by women, and it doesn't interest me. In my slash writing, I get a lot more graphic, simply because I enjoy it.

Re: trying again...stupid LJ

[freyafloyd.livejournal.com]

I feel differently towards having sex than I do towrds viewing/reading depictions of it. I was acutally going to try and explain why, but I think it might be too personal and take about 50,000 words. So, short less personal version. There is a connection during sex that gets away from the whole woman hating thing. The strength of that connection can't be replicated in a fic, not in terms of making the reader feel that connected to a fic. So a fic can't shut out the sexist environment in a way that sex can. Plus, some of my relationships beyond the sex have been really good, because some men are not that sexist. It is society as a whole that is sexist, and a large number of inidividuals within it.

Not sure that made sense.

Re: trying again...stupid LJ

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Well, we're het, nothing to do about that. I like het sex. So what I don't understand is why nobody is writing sexy het sex. Why the mainstream continues in its boring fashion. Above all, I don't understand why *I* don't seem to manage to write sexy het sex, nor why I don't even have an interest in trying to write sexy het sex.

Fic *could* shut out the sexist environment if it wanted to. Appeal of sci fi, fantasy et cetera.

Re: trying again...stupid LJ

[pippinspeach.livejournal.com]

oh, I've read sexy het. Definitely. It just has to be done really well to not make my eyes glaze over with "god I've read this a thousand times already in my life"

Re: trying again...stupid LJ

[pippinspeach.livejournal.com]

a rec - it's BSB het, written by friends of mine:

http://www.wickedthought.com/visuals/birthdaywishes.htm

hehe. :) Even Brenda didn't flee...

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

I used to be a feminist and perhaps I still am, residually, although I don't *do* anything feminist these days except get irate when yet again not 50 percent of the cabinet is female nor 50 percent of the ministers are women.

I am sick and tired and tediumed out by mainstream representations of het. *yawns* So I'm with you there. After all, there is a reason why we all escaped into slash! Because it's so much more erotic here!

I do have erotic interests in women. For me, the emphasis is a bit different. If I just want something to wank to, I'll go for pix of women or woman-on-woman wank!fic. But the men do something more for me: they have a swoon factor.

And you are absolutely spot on re the mythic aspect. The manichaean black/white that can be translated woman/man - the allure of archetypal dualities and opposites attracting.

And no, while Bollywood is swoony for me it's not *hot* for me. This is also true.

[airgiodslv.livejournal.com]

Agreed. Yes, yes, yes. Het, to me, is boring. You are only dealing with one relationship, and it has been explored publicly in every possible permutation. Slash is still new enough to be captivating and risque, and there is so much more to play with in terms of comparative status shifts and gender coding. There is also the 'forbidden' element; slash still makes people squirm a little in their seats. And that is why I find it so fascinating.

(The above semicolon use was put in especially for you. *kisses*)

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

I have no idea, as I said to Cordelia, why I can't and why I'm not interested in writing sexy het. I would like to do it, I want to read it, but I am pulled, forever pulled, towards the man-on-man action.