pov musings

[lobelia321]

I don't think I've written any truly sustained first-person pov fic before, except now for the Desert Prince. And I'm learning a lot from it.

I've learned so much writing slash as it is, about pacing and dialogue and words and plot and pov, and the first-person pov is another very, very interesting tour to sustain.

In many ways, I find it quite liberating. My policy for DP has been to post the WIP as I go, so sometimes my idea of its plot and characterisation has changed after posting earlier parts -- but I can then twist that because it's Orli's pov, so the 'errors' are there because Orli didn't understand something fully. It's also made me think very much about the Orli-character and how he perceives people and situations, and then especially (which has been the surprise for me) it's made me think about the other people.

I'm thinking that in first-person pov, the author has to think herself into the other people even more than in third-person or omniscient pov because there is no opportunity to tell the reader what these other people are thinking. The only lens through which the reader will be able to get at these other people will be the first-person pov lens, and that is of necessity limited and must operate using clues. So everything the other people do becomes a clue and becomes weighted: the reader gains insight into them only by their actions, their words and the effect they have on first-person pov (let's just say Orlando, in this case).

What's been especially challenging and interesting has been to convey to the reader a slightly different picture from the one in Orli's head. I think that is the true challenge and also the true joy of writing strict and sustained first-person pov: maintaining narrator distance from the first-person pov and allowing the reader glimpses into realities outside Orli's head. Because he doesn't understand some situations and people, he gets some of them a bit wrong, they deliberately mislead him, but he also understands some other people better than they understand themselves -- and then, he himself changes as the fic progresses, and so do his perceptions.

What I've been doing is to speak the dialogue to myself, using different voices (the car is a good place for this, as is the bike!). And then I try to assume the facial expressions that go with the voices, and think of the actions and interactions -- and before I know it I'm in someone else's head. I think to write Orli I have to know the other people quite well, so that in writing Orli's words I can provide a sort of tip-of-the-iceberg characterisation.

(It's one of the things I admire about shaenie's writing: her rich knowledge of all of her characters.)

It's very fulfilling and exciting for the author (me) as well: to find out new things about all of the characters all the time. And DP has a much larger cast than I've ever written, and a much more complex plot than I've ever attempted.

Keeping all the strands of this plot firmly in my hands is tricky and, interestingly, the first-person pov helps with that, too, because it helps me to focus on what bit of the plot to present at any one time. The plot reveals itself to the reader at the same pace as events reveal themselves to Orli.

I love what Mikhail Bakhtin (1920s and 30s Russin cultural muser) said about the novel, that what characterises the novel in contrast to all other forms of literature is its multi-pov'ness. Those are not his words (evidently!); I think he calls this 'the dialogic imagination' (name of one of his books). You get a whole lot of voices (as opposed to poetry or the epic).

azewewish and shinysparkly have also been helpful to me in the past in thinking through pov. They gave me the idea of writing up or thinking through the 'other' people's parts, not just the main or the pov character's. They gave me the idea of crawling into characters' heads.

And once you've crawled into someone's head, you've got to crawl out again and describe the exterior: the setting, the speeches, the actions. And then all of these become clues to the inside of the character's heads. Because the author has to have been inside that person's head but the reader doesn't necessarily have to be taken right inside. Or not all the time. (That's one aspect of the old chestnut of 'show not tell', I guess.)

Anyway, I guess this is also offered as part explanation why it's taking so long to post this series. I went off it for many months but now I'm so immersed in it that I don't like to post before every fascicle is not thought through in all its parts.


Prompted by cupiscent, bless her.

Comments

[pippinspeach.livejournal.com]

In many ways, I find it quite liberating.

First person can be liberating in some ways, but limiting in others. It's been a fun experiment, though, after so many years writing in third. What was most liberating for me was writing present tense, after writing past tense all my life. It's pretty trendy, but it does get the flow going.

The only lens through which the reader will be able to get at these other people will be the first-person pov lens, and that is of necessity limited and must operate using clues. So everything the other people do becomes a clue and becomes weighted: the reader gains insight into them only by their actions, their words and the effect they have on first-person pov

Very true - my friends and I once made a list of ways to show other characters' POVs...things they say, things they write & the main character reads, things they do, choices they make, etc.

What's been especially challenging and interesting has been to convey to the reader a slightly different picture from the one in Orli's head.

yes! I have found this to be so much fun to play with. I've written a long one where I intentionally locked myself in very limited third person (more on that before; it's more like first) but played with letting the reader and the main character's friend in on things before my main character, while he remained oblivious. After the reveal, any reader who hadn't yet caught on could go back and look at everything again, and see how it matched up with the reality my main character didn't know about at the time, but was actually going on. That was fun. :)

My preferred POV is kind of a blend of first and third...third person that has the limitations of first, where you absolutely do not get any other character POV whatsoever...but then that allows you as the author to use a style and vocab the character wouldn't use, as when you write sex scenes & descriptions & the like.

also offered as part explanation why it's taking so long to post this series. I went off it for many months but now I'm so immersed in it that I don't like to post before every fascicle is not thought through in all its parts.

yes - I've decided that with Emerald I'm not posting it until individual parts of the series are finished. No more WIP for me. Have learned my lesson well. ;)

thanks for your fascinating words - I saw them on one of the lists & decided I'd much rather post here.

eta: had to delete & repost this, as I messed up the italics, sorry ---- and to add that LOTR_RPS has been a fun place to play so far. As I posted in trianne's LJ today in response to something she wrote, the standards are so high here, and it's possible to learn so much.

Re:

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

What was most liberating for me was writing present tense,,/i>
Heh! In fact, as soon as I'd finished the pov post, I thought about making another tense post. Because the two are somehow intimately connected.

my friends and I once made a list of ways to show other characters' POVs..
Is this list publicly available? *looks polite*

I've written a long one where I intentionally locked myself in very limited third person
Link???

but then that allows you as the author to use a style and vocab the character wouldn't use,
Yes, this is an interesting point. That subtle difference between very tight 3rd-person pov and actual 1st-person pov. But limiting the vocab you allow yourself is also enjoyable -- or so I'm finding. Much of it has to do with author psyching herself into being the person: writing in 1st person, I find, plunges me into that person's head much more thoroughly.

No more WIP for me. Have learned my lesson well.
Heh. With me, it was the opposite way round. I always hated WIPs; they frustrated me to read and I didn't like posting unfinished fragments. But after driving myself mad with the endless Karl/Dom epic I decided that for me, myself, for my own personal mental health, I needed to embrace the perils of WIP.

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[pippinspeach.livejournal.com]

my friends and I once made a list of ways to show other characters' POVs..
Is this list publicly available? *looks polite*

it was really informal (we were chatting) - luckily I have that particular notebook with me:
1. firsthand dialogue/argument/discussion
2. eavesdrop
3. read something left out intentionally or unintentionally
4. make him question his own perception - could he mean this? etc
5. secondhand - heard from someone else

I'm sure there are lots more.

I've written a long one where I intentionally locked myself in very limited third person
Link???

I will have to email it to you - it's in another fandom where it's mandatory that I remain pseudonymous.

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[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Oh, this is a great list. I hadn't thought of eavesdropping. I would add:

6. Physical reactions of other person
7. Actions of other person

[cupiscent.livejournal.com]

Huzzah for ruminations on POV! Prompted by me! Squee!

I find I do a lot of that stuff you've described for first-person in narrow third-person POV as well. Narrow third is how I'd describe most of my fics - where it's a "he/she" telling, but with the camera only following one character to the extent that that character is, in effect, the narrator. There's still the constraint of view, I'm just not using first-person.

I think I avoid using first-person because of the storytelling attached to that form of narration. Er, let's try that again with the making sense. Every time I've used first-person, I've had a very strong sense of the narrator being that - a narrator. That character is telling the story. (In Ring Pull, Dom frames the telling of the story with comments that show he is doing the telling. In Eric, Miranda has quite a few comments directed to the camera, as it were.)

It's something I become very conscious of in the way the story is told (Dom, for instance, never gives attributive tags to his own speech in Ring Pull, because it just felt wrong), and to a certain extent I feel more constrained to accuracy because of it. It's as if, because the narrator knows that he's telling the story, he has to make an effort to be honest and tell what's actually happening, even if he doesn't really want to. Whereas if I'm using the narrow third, then the character can hide things because he's hiding them from himself, or he doesn't know them, and it's fine. It's not an intent to hide from the audience, which it has to be in first person. It's not purposely deceiving, it's just being human.

In essence, I feel like I can play with the reader and make the narrator unreliable, while showing hints, in narrow third. Whereas in first, I feel like there's no space for sleight of hand. There's no screen between the narrator-character and the audience. Does that make sense?

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[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

I was just thinking (and responding above) about the difference between very tight 3rd person and 1st person. They can be quite subtle. Well, there's the psychological effect of the word "I"; I think, on both the reader and the author, this effect is quite strong. I certainly find I have to pull my socks up much more smartly when I'm writing "I", and I am plunged much more thoroughly into Orli's head.

I've had a very strong sense of the narrator being that - a narrator. That character is telling the story.
Yes, yes, I think you've really put your finger on something here! The narrator is much more collapsed with the character -- although, of course, that's not happening really but it feels that way. And this is why it has to do with tenses as well (new post coming up!) and with framing, as you say. Because there's the sense that you can ask the question 'where is this 1st person now? where is he narrating from?' And you create that frame so brilliantly in Ring Pull (esp. with that cheeky ending!). Because a third person doesn't tell a story but a first person does. *kisses you in delight at having this clarified*

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[pippinspeach.livejournal.com]

Narrow third is how I'd describe most of my fics - where it's a "he/she" telling, but with the camera only following one character to the extent that that character is, in effect, the narrator. There's still the constraint of view, I'm just not using first-person.

yay! someone else that gets it. I've never been able to find it in writing books, and sometimes I feel like I'm the only one & am doing something wrong, hehe.

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<i>Narrow third is how I'd describe most of my fics - where it's a "he/she" telling, but with the camera only following one character to the extent that that character is, in effect, the narrator. There's still the constraint of view, I'm just not using first-person.<i>

yay! someone else that gets it. I've never been able to find it in writing books, and sometimes I feel like I'm the only one & am doing something wrong, hehe.

<i.time I've used first-person, I've had a very strong sense of the narrator being that - a narrator. </i>

yes- it does eliminate the suspense element in some stories. Say, for example, in a story in which the character's life is in danger. Well, the reader knows he got out of it, or how could he be telling the story right now. The only way to get around this is to have him be telling the story from the afterlife or to put it in present tense, where you can sort of get away with it by making him describe his own death at the end.

However, we read so many stories over our lifetimes that I think we train ourselves to be able to overlook this.

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[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

This is a dilemma I have come up hard against.

But I figured out a way. Can't divulge, of course!