why i like writing desert prince
Feb. 7th, 2004 09:12 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
lobelia321I know that it seems as if I'm not writing DP because I post so rarely but for a few weeks, I actually have been writing as well as thinking very hard about the story of DP. It's moved in all sorts of directions I never thought it would; it's branched out in a way that I'm starting to suspect only an AU will (and perhaps origfic will be like that? Because what is origfic but AU?).
Some authors post a lot of snippets and musings about where they're currently at with a story. I don't do that with DP, partly because I'm superstitious and believe that once talked about the fragile dream will fade away. But I will muse about my own feelings about it, in a shamelessly self-indulgent way. And to memory it so that I can refer to it in future days.
There are several things that keep me going with DP. One is the fact that the fic's germ is a dream I had as a 16-year old girl. I can still conjure up the setting and emotions of that dream; the vividness of that oneiric snippet, as it were, helps to keep the fic grounded, and because it makes the fic so very personal (so very Mary Sueish!), that keeps me interested.
Another is the setting. For decades, I have loved Arab aesthetics. Not the politics, not the patriarchy, not even the real life (although that feeds it) but a dream aesthetics of Orientalist proportions (in Edward Said's sense -- and again, I indulge shamelessly and without pc regrets). Minarets, desert sands, men in galabiahs, the sound of the muezzin calling people to prayer, the whole Arabian Nights atmosphere conjured up for me by words like ambergris, pomegranate and grand vizier -- which brings me to the words of DP.
One of the reasons I find DP fragile is my experience with the karl/dom epic which was so woeful. That, also, was very MarySueish but in a bad way. It had no scaffolding for the Mary Sue to be contained. DP has the scaffolding of the prose style which limits what I can do and by limiting me, liberates me. Sometimes the prose flows, sometimes I help it along by reading Arabian Nights or Nizami or Abu Nuwas, sometimes it stalls and sometimes it gets too much and *too* baroque. Sometimes I feel it should be more pastichy, sometimes I feel as if the prose has become my own so much that it ceases to be anchored in Oriental tales.
Another reason is that I can immerse myself in the aesthetics I like by doing 'research'. I had never heard of Firdausi and Nizami two months ago but they are famous mediaeval Persian poets and my icon illustrates a Firdausi manuscript and on Friday I read Nizami's Tale of the Seven Princesses (in their seven pavilions). I read the Grove Dictionary of Music to find out about Arabic musical instruments. I read the Grove Dictionary of Art to find out about Islamic calligraphy and about the art of textiles (for I thought I should know at least as much as my protagonist who is, after all, a cloth merchant). Then I had to stop myself because what does a cloth merchant know of Classical Arabic metre or court music? But then I solved that problem by making someone else know about these things.
And all the time the story grows. It now has a backstory with characters that are starting to interest me almost as much and possibly more than the ones in my actual fic. It has an ending and a story beyond the ending with another set of characters that pull me towards them and want me to spin their tales. It has a cast of characters, each one of whom is starting to have their own lives and backstories and things they do while my main first-person protagonist isn't looking. It's all so interesting and all so much more than my original dream. It's got love and lust and power and politics and superstition and science and art and pride and hate and intrigue and moral choice.
It's a much more complicated story than I've ever written. Sometimes I don't feel quite up to it (which is when thinking of the prose limitations helps me, and thinking of the fact that this is not beyond me, but belongs to me and is based on my own *dream*), and most times I have my other book to write these days so don't have the peace of mind (or desk space) to devote to DP.
And no LJ cut, either. I was pondering whether to put one in. But a) that makes this post seem more important than it really is (to anyone but me); b)![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
thamiris posts mile-long posts without cutting; and c) I just feel like inflicting this on everyone and you, my longsuffering Friends, must simply scroll on by.
Some authors post a lot of snippets and musings about where they're currently at with a story. I don't do that with DP, partly because I'm superstitious and believe that once talked about the fragile dream will fade away. But I will muse about my own feelings about it, in a shamelessly self-indulgent way. And to memory it so that I can refer to it in future days.
There are several things that keep me going with DP. One is the fact that the fic's germ is a dream I had as a 16-year old girl. I can still conjure up the setting and emotions of that dream; the vividness of that oneiric snippet, as it were, helps to keep the fic grounded, and because it makes the fic so very personal (so very Mary Sueish!), that keeps me interested.
Another is the setting. For decades, I have loved Arab aesthetics. Not the politics, not the patriarchy, not even the real life (although that feeds it) but a dream aesthetics of Orientalist proportions (in Edward Said's sense -- and again, I indulge shamelessly and without pc regrets). Minarets, desert sands, men in galabiahs, the sound of the muezzin calling people to prayer, the whole Arabian Nights atmosphere conjured up for me by words like ambergris, pomegranate and grand vizier -- which brings me to the words of DP.
One of the reasons I find DP fragile is my experience with the karl/dom epic which was so woeful. That, also, was very MarySueish but in a bad way. It had no scaffolding for the Mary Sue to be contained. DP has the scaffolding of the prose style which limits what I can do and by limiting me, liberates me. Sometimes the prose flows, sometimes I help it along by reading Arabian Nights or Nizami or Abu Nuwas, sometimes it stalls and sometimes it gets too much and *too* baroque. Sometimes I feel it should be more pastichy, sometimes I feel as if the prose has become my own so much that it ceases to be anchored in Oriental tales.
Another reason is that I can immerse myself in the aesthetics I like by doing 'research'. I had never heard of Firdausi and Nizami two months ago but they are famous mediaeval Persian poets and my icon illustrates a Firdausi manuscript and on Friday I read Nizami's Tale of the Seven Princesses (in their seven pavilions). I read the Grove Dictionary of Music to find out about Arabic musical instruments. I read the Grove Dictionary of Art to find out about Islamic calligraphy and about the art of textiles (for I thought I should know at least as much as my protagonist who is, after all, a cloth merchant). Then I had to stop myself because what does a cloth merchant know of Classical Arabic metre or court music? But then I solved that problem by making someone else know about these things.
And all the time the story grows. It now has a backstory with characters that are starting to interest me almost as much and possibly more than the ones in my actual fic. It has an ending and a story beyond the ending with another set of characters that pull me towards them and want me to spin their tales. It has a cast of characters, each one of whom is starting to have their own lives and backstories and things they do while my main first-person protagonist isn't looking. It's all so interesting and all so much more than my original dream. It's got love and lust and power and politics and superstition and science and art and pride and hate and intrigue and moral choice.
It's a much more complicated story than I've ever written. Sometimes I don't feel quite up to it (which is when thinking of the prose limitations helps me, and thinking of the fact that this is not beyond me, but belongs to me and is based on my own *dream*), and most times I have my other book to write these days so don't have the peace of mind (or desk space) to devote to DP.
And no LJ cut, either. I was pondering whether to put one in. But a) that makes this post seem more important than it really is (to anyone but me); b)
thamiris posts mile-long posts without cutting; and c) I just feel like inflicting this on everyone and you, my longsuffering Friends, must simply scroll on by.![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2004-02-08 05:31 am (UTC)Maybe all fic is MarySue in some way, because in order for it to work and to keep us engaged, we must have some very personal connection to it; there must be some way for us to identify so closely with at least one character that we can at least imagine ourselves into the story.
I am also so very entranced with the Arab world; at least with that imagined, mythical place that probably never existed. (It doesn't hurt that I'm reading "The Persian Boy" right now.) There is something so romantic, exiting, frightening and mysterious about it. I think your prose captures that time and place beautifully.
Re:
Date: 2004-02-08 01:49 pm (UTC)I am going to post something about Mary Sues sometime soon. I've been thinking about them. They have been dreadfully vilified and made to go underground. But I agree with you: they are probably crucial to writing fic. And so it's important to acknowledge the Sue and *know* who is the Sue!
And you are so perceptive! Yes, for me this has gone way beyond a Lotr AU; the characters are largely origchar now (well, Orli and Bean always were, because they were the ones my dream started out with), and it actually jars (as
Do you do that with Impulse?
Re:
Date: 2004-02-09 06:38 am (UTC)I'd love to see you comment at length on the Mary Sue. I think there is a considerable difference between the Mary Sue's that are rightfully villified because the self-insertion is so blatant and the "necessary" Mary Sue's. Identifying her is the key though, and something I haven't really thought of doing. Must ponder. *coughDannycough*
In a funny different way, it helps thinking of the actors' physiognomies, though - not the women, necessarily, because they are just too *blonde*, but Orli and Karl I do conjure up in my head -- but not so much as themselves.
Oh, absolutely. For some reason, this is the biggest difficulty in origfic that is not even an issue in fanfiction. Getting a picture of your character that has been influenced by an actor makes everything so much easier. Then you can do whatever you want with the actual character, especially in an AU.
I think of them as playing those roles, and I imagine them having been cast and how they would act their roles. Well, with Orli I have to imagine that he's had a lot more training and learned to eliminate the furrowing.... but you know what I mean.
Yes! I do that too. In fact, I did it as a teenager when I was attempting to write an historical romance. I remember scouring magazines and watching a lot of TV, looking for the right "looks" for my characters. So much the better if I found an actor who could "play" them. So, in some ways, I've ended up having the actors in Memphis Belle influence my fics characters as much if not more than the movie's characters did.
You know, I was thinking about this all of last night, and almost called you again because I was dying to talk about it. I didn't get a chance until 5 am though, and by then I was about ready to collapse. Maybe next week!
Re:
Date: 2004-02-09 09:55 pm (UTC)*has boiling blood attack*
I need to get those books now! Except I can't, because it's 10 pm. Bum.
So, Mary Renault = sekrit slasha, eh? Maybe she has an LJ!
omg 111 liek 111 *scours Flist for likely candidates*
Although I just know they're going to het-ify the whole thing beyond all reason.
I mean: Petersen! Das Boot! (pronounced 'daz boot', in English pronounciation) What can you expect? Well, *we* know! And the fucking *favourite cousing*... *vomits into wastepaper basket*
Anyway. In the photos, Helen looks so ugly, too. I mean: aren't there enough beautiful women around? Did they have to pick a blonde dud? (Is this jealousy and het-annoyance speaking? Or is it considered actorial judgement??)
coughDannycough*
Danny!!?? So it's Danny, is it?? Hah! You hide it well, woman! (I thought Rascal...)
For some reason, this is the biggest difficulty in origfic that is not even an issue in fanfiction. Getting a picture of your character that has been influenced by an actor makes everything so much easier. Then you can do whatever you want with the actual character, especially in an AU.
There's nothing stopping us from doing fanficish assigning of characters to actors in our heads and then giving fictive names and writing origfic, is there? Maybe this is the necessary portal to beam us from fanfic to origfic - that transition that seems to give everyone such headaches!
*ponders challenge to that effect* (As in: Look, here's an origfic; guess the actors behind the roles.)
Ack, that could lead to travesties, however: 'Jim gazed at Randall with is mocha eyes and pouted prettily. Randall growled in manly way but turned back to his painting, giving vent to his arty side.'
I remember scouring magazines and watching a lot of TV, looking for the right "looks" for my characters.
Hah! You have been there and done that, then!
You know, I was thinking about this all of last night, and almost called you again because I was dying to talk about it.
Heh. v2v lust! I am touched that you feel so moved to talk by my pointless ramblings. :-)
Re:
Date: 2004-02-10 03:26 am (UTC)omg 111 liek 111 *scours Flist for likely candidates*
Unfortunately, she's been dead about twenty years. But she was no sekrit slasha, oh no. She went public with it long before it was in any was fashionable. I might post the notes she wrote to Fire From Heaven, because she (or her publisher) clearly felt she needed to explain why the boy/boy love. She makes her historical argument, then in effect says, if you don't like it, don't read that into it! Hee. That's my girl. Classic slasher-logic. I reread all of the romantic bits from Fire From Heaven today. It's really just that, not at all graphic, but oh-so-Romantic and angsty!!OMG.
And the fucking *favourite cousing*... *vomits into wastepaper basket*
I don't know if I'm going to be able to bear it. But I do endure much for the sake of the pretty. And there's always the fanfiction too!
Anyway. In the photos, Helen looks so ugly, too. I mean: aren't there enough beautiful women around? Did they have to pick a blonde dud? (Is this jealousy and het-annoyance speaking? Or is it considered actorial judgement??)
Oh, I'm so relieved. I've felt that way since I first saw the actress they picked, but thought maybe I was just being catty because she gets paid for snogging Orlando. She just looks so bland. I wouldn't send one ship after her, let alone one thousand!
Danny!!?? So it's Danny, is it?? Hah! You hide it well, woman! (I thought Rascal...)
I do hide it well? It seemed so obvious to me at first, I was calling him DannySue! As a result though, I made an extra effort to get into Rascal's head.
'Jim gazed at Randall with is mocha eyes and pouted prettily. Randall growled in manly way but turned back to his painting, giving vent to his arty side.'
*dies laughing* Well, I think cliches are cliches, fanfic or not!
Re:
Date: 2004-02-11 10:19 am (UTC)Ack! Well, that's shut me up. *feels embarrassed*
I might post the notes she wrote to Fire From Heaven, because she (or her publisher) clearly felt she needed to explain why the boy/boy love. She makes her historical argument, then in effect says, if you don't like it, don't read that into it! Hee. That's my girl. Classic slasher-logic.
Oh yes, that is so true! That is like a Warning or a Disclaimer. And yes, post the notes!!!! POST THE NOTES!!! Do you think slasherdom is some sort of gene that has lain dormant in a certain percentage of the world's female population, waiting for the advent of the internet????
I wouldn't send one ship after her, let alone one thousand!
Not even a barge!
This comes of ignoring Indian actresses. They are the most beautiful women in the world.
As a result though, I made an extra effort to get into Rascal's head.
You know, i was drafting a post in my head only yesterday (do you ever do that? draft posts??), a follow-up to Mary Sue musings, because I've done that: written more elaborately about the non-Sue character. In my case, not so much in order to compensate but because I was hiding behind the Sue and didn't want to reveal his inner workings (because they were my inner workings).
Re:
Date: 2004-02-12 04:06 am (UTC)I think it's a good possibility. When I think of all of the historical novels I've read, written in the mid-20th century by women (and before Anne Rice), there is a good deal of what could be considered unseemly reveling in the idea of boy/boy love, especially in stories set in the ancient world or the Renaissance (Taylor Caldwell comes to mind). And also a good deal of enjoyment of it by people like my mother who would not in a million years confess to enjoying it. Ha!
Not even a barge!
This comes of ignoring Indian actresses. They are the most beautiful women in the world.
Yes! And I'm sure that many of them speak wonderful English as well. Why are they being shut out? Now we're stuck with boring-looking blondes. (Not that all blondes are boring-looking). And this just occurred to me; does anyone (like Homer) actually say that Helen of Troy was blonde? I'm sure she was "fair," but blonde? I'll have to look it up!
You know, i was drafting a post in my head only yesterday (do you ever do that? draft posts??),
Oh, all the time. It's become a way for me to order my thoughts, even if I never write the actual post. In fact it's become so bad that last night I had a dream about writing a post about what happened in my dream. The Cute Marine was measuring my head and told me it was very very big. I thought: I can't wait to post this! Argh.
Re:
Date: 2004-02-13 12:05 pm (UTC)*clamps hands on mouth to prevent self from howling in unseemly mirthful fasion as is in t'hallowed reference library*
I dreamed, last night, about receiving in the post a whole handful of printed fanzines...
When I think of all of the historical novels I've read, written in the mid-20th century by women (and before Anne Rice), there is a good deal of what could be considered unseemly reveling in the idea of boy/boy love, especially in stories set in the ancient world or the Renaissance (Taylor Caldwell comes to mind). And also a good deal of enjoyment of it by people like my mother who would not in a million years confess to enjoying it. Ha!
Ha indeed! Haha!
How weird: the internet as fulfillment of dormant gene. From urslimeslash to livejournal in only forty millennia.
Taylor Caldwell??? Any good?
I can't get over your mother devouring surreptitious slash.
Re:
Date: 2004-02-13 05:00 pm (UTC)Ouch. Now you've made me picture slash as an amoeba-like creature crawling out of the urslime.
You know, I really enjoyed Taylor Caldwell as a teenager, but it would be hard for me to make any judgements as to quality without rereading a few. She wrote a lot of very dramatic, fictionalized biographies of famous figures of the ancient world, like Pericles and Cicero. The prose had a tendency to be purple as I recall, but the books were pretty riveting. I do remember feeling like she always had some sort of political agenda, maybe because she seemed to have a fixation on conspiracy theories. I should give them another try and see it they stand the test of time.
And now my mother denies all. I asked her if she remembered giving me "The Persian Boy," and she claimed complete ignorance. I can't believe she forgot my tantrum: "I am TOO old enough to read it, MOM!" But oh well. If it gives her piece in her old age to think that she had no hand in my corruption, so be it. *g*
(no subject)
Date: 2004-02-10 07:29 am (UTC)It's interesting that you would say this, because I think that's the reason why I'm...how to put this? Somewhat disenchanted with DP at the moment. Not that I don't think it's an amazing story, because I do. I think it's some of the best writing you've ever done.
But I think you've fallen too in love with the style of writing & the other characters, as opposed to telling the main story.
Which isn't a bad thing, but the meandering storyline does tend to lose its power after awhile. The best thing, to me, about being a writer, is that I know everyone's backstory, I know where the characters come from & I can put all of the research & thinking & obsessing into the main story without actually *putting* it all in there. The story becomes better because I know the characters. But it's not necessary for the rest of the world to know them as I do.
But then, you and I have such vastly different writing styles. *grins* Which is exactly as it should be.
Re:
Date: 2004-02-11 10:45 am (UTC)I have to ponder this for a bit. At the moment, I have no very focused thoughts about it. I suppose I'm wondering how to pull your two comments about style and storyline together because you seem to link them causally.
But I think you've fallen too in love with the style of writing
The prose of this is at once the fic's salvation and its trap, to my mind. I do get carried away with the prose; I do fall in love with it -- and to some extent I like it, because it's partly the reason I'm writing this and it's what *allows* me to write it. But I also see how it can be a trap, and how the words start to serve only themselves. I think that's just the knife-edge balancing act of this particular fic (but maybe of all fics.. because they all have a style, after all), and maybe sometimes I do teeter off the edge to one side a bit, perhaps.
the meandering storyline does tend to lose its power after awhile. But I'm not sure how the prose links to the storyline. And it's interesting that you see it as meandering whereas I saw it as enriching. And perhaps it's indicative of the fact that at the moment I'm not entirely sure what the main storyline is. Your comment made me realise that because I thought, 'but how am I veering from the main story? Because what *is* the main story?' Which shows that I evidently need to think hard about this and put my eggs in one basket.
Still, I don't entirely want to give up the big-tapestry background. I had thought (and perhaps relied too much on this!) that the first-person pov would provide the focus; no matter how much exterior there is, the reader is always in Orlando's head. And also, to some extent,I want and need the background because it explains events and character traits that will come up later.
But I take your comment very much to heart. It is really helpful to hear this perspective. Thank you for being such a thoughtful and serious commenter.
Re:
Date: 2004-02-13 03:35 am (UTC)What I see you trying to do here is create an entire world, full of sights & smells & sounds & a rich tapestry of history and drama. However, the main story, that of Orlando and the Desert Prince, has barely been scratched. You're spending so much time on the set-up that you're losing sight of the story you set out to write.
Which is a great thing, but you need to be aware that's what happened & adjust accordingly. The story is no longer about The Desert Prince. And now you need to decide if you want to wind your back back to him or head in that new direction.
Make any sense at all?
*mwah*
Re:
Date: 2004-02-13 12:23 pm (UTC)I'm not sure what to do about it. Think about it and know about it, is the main thing, I suppose, as you so wisely say. And then do whatever I enjoy doing but *know* that's what I'm doing.
Because, as you so often said, we primarily write for ourselves. Adn if I'm not enjoying it: quel point?
So I will sit and think about what I enjoy most and mostest: whether it's the entire tapestry or whether it's Orli/Karl. :-)
Re:
Date: 2004-02-11 10:47 am (UTC)Oh yes, and I meant to say: I learned this from you, of course. And I still think it's fantastic advice. The iceberg principle!
But you know, partly I just enjoy inhabiting that citadel. I just love being there, and being there means writing it. It's the balance thing again. I felt actually, that I was meandering too much in the lead-up to the three women -- all that walking around -- but when I got to the three women I thought I had it again, I'd regained the reins.
Re:
Date: 2004-02-13 03:38 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2004-02-16 02:49 am (UTC)I literally smell the incense and feel the desert sun on my head when I read it. Good job.
Re:
Date: 2004-02-16 10:57 am (UTC)