preliminary musings on mary sue
Feb. 9th, 2004 10:13 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
lobelia321Here are some undigested musings on Mary Sue, prompted by my recent posting of k/d.
One of the reasons that the k/d epic wip did not work was that I had got my Mary Sue wrong. All the time I was writing and angsting, I thought it was a Dom!Sue but later it was pointed out to me that it was actually a Karl!Sue, and suddenly the whole thing made a lot more sense. It was a Karl!Sue, and part of the mess I'd got myself into was because I had mis-identified my Sue!
It is actually important, I have come to believe, to know your Sue. Sues have been vilified extensively and have had to lead an underground existence but perhaps it's time that we took them seriously for a bit. I think knowing your Sue helps you to reflect upon that Sue and maybe gain the necessary fictional distance for a fic to work. And as we all (?) have secret-Sues, anyway, or at least tend to identify with one character very strongly (otherwise, where would the passion in the writing come from?), we might as well own up -- at least to ourselves.
This does not mean blatant Harry-Pottering. After all, I'm not talking about bad!fic but about sophisticated Sue-manipulations. Cupiscent is a mistress of that, for example.
So: free that inner Sue! But do it in order to make the fic better.
One of the reasons that the k/d epic wip did not work was that I had got my Mary Sue wrong. All the time I was writing and angsting, I thought it was a Dom!Sue but later it was pointed out to me that it was actually a Karl!Sue, and suddenly the whole thing made a lot more sense. It was a Karl!Sue, and part of the mess I'd got myself into was because I had mis-identified my Sue!
It is actually important, I have come to believe, to know your Sue. Sues have been vilified extensively and have had to lead an underground existence but perhaps it's time that we took them seriously for a bit. I think knowing your Sue helps you to reflect upon that Sue and maybe gain the necessary fictional distance for a fic to work. And as we all (?) have secret-Sues, anyway, or at least tend to identify with one character very strongly (otherwise, where would the passion in the writing come from?), we might as well own up -- at least to ourselves.
This does not mean blatant Harry-Pottering. After all, I'm not talking about bad!fic but about sophisticated Sue-manipulations. Cupiscent is a mistress of that, for example.
So: free that inner Sue! But do it in order to make the fic better.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2004-02-09 10:36 pm (UTC)I've neglected commenting in your LJ for a while I know, but you almost made me pull something from laughing so hard just now.
Just thought you should know. :D
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Date: 2004-02-09 11:07 pm (UTC)Well, *miffs*, this was meant to be an entirely Serious post on matters of World Import. And you laugh! You mock!
*stomps off to unfriend*
On another note: hey! So nice to see you! Remember spamming that dreadful woman's LJ?
Is that you???? *stares at icon*
*decides perhaps not to unfriend after all*
*is shallow on physical attractiveness level*
Re:
Date: 2004-02-10 03:36 am (UTC)*snort*
Of course I remember the time we bonded! I still gloat over having gone on the POTC ride at Disney BEFORE the movie came out.
*glees*
And sadly, that's not me, it's Stevie Nicks. Will you still wuff me?
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Date: 2004-02-11 10:20 am (UTC)Re:
Date: 2004-02-11 05:16 pm (UTC)Re:
Date: 2004-02-11 10:10 pm (UTC)omg liek 111 (and so forth)
She had a fairly charismatic stage presence because I was miles away (open-air concert).
What's that song I like? I like Rhiannon but that other one... a sort of triumphant one, quite short? Bugger.
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Date: 2004-02-11 10:47 pm (UTC)If it's quite short it must be "Landslide."
"I've been afraid of changing
Because I built my life around you
But time makes you bolder
Children get older
And I'm getting older too..."
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Date: 2004-02-13 11:42 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2004-02-09 11:00 pm (UTC)No Sean icon, so Orli will have to abide for all three of us...
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Date: 2004-02-09 11:10 pm (UTC)Otoh, there's nothing to prevent Sues doing things you'd like to do but haven't or can't. But I can empathise with what you are saying. It's a very interesting issue and I haven't got much to say about it as yet. I will ponder this.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-02-10 03:59 am (UTC)Re:
Date: 2004-02-11 10:25 am (UTC)I'm amazed that I made you aware of that as I've only been aware of that myself for a very short while. Hm, maybe therapy is good for something after all? I was really starting to wonder about that...
I think I might be in the midst of a Sue-switch in ALIoD.
Whooa, this is making my head spin. Writing is so weird! And dizzy-making! (And your acronym is a mouthful!!)
But Sue-switch. This hadn't occurred to me. What I did in k/d, as I realised upon re-reading, is that I wrote a *lot* about Dom, to the extent that I started thinking Dom was my Sue. But now I've realised that I was a)hiding behind Karl; he was the Sue but I didn't want to reveal myself; it was the whole psycho thing I hadn't come to terms with and I was hiding from myself as much as from anyone else, and b) if you're the Sue, you write about the other person more than about yourself; that seems clear -- because it's you who's in love with X or Y, so of course you think about X or Y a lot and describe X and Y and so forth. So that seems sort of logical to me, that the not-Sue can come more easily to the writer than the Sue.
This all seems very interesting and nice and hands-on craft-of-writing to me but I wonder if any creative writing courses would know what to do with the term 'Sue'?????
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Date: 2004-02-12 03:53 am (UTC)I'm amazed that I made you aware of that as I've only been aware of that myself for a very short while. Hm, maybe therapy is good for something after all?
After I wrote that sentence, I thought: well, shouldn't that be obvious? But apparently, it's not. I feel like I should be chipping in on your therapist's bill. :) I generally write so "unconsciously," that I really don't know what's going on in my head; stuff is just coming out.
But Sue-switch. This hadn't occurred to me. What I did in k/d, as I realised upon re-reading, is that I wrote a *lot* about Dom, to the extent that I started thinking Dom was my Sue. But now I've realised that I was a)hiding behind Karl; he was the Sue but I didn't want to reveal myself; it was the whole psycho thing I hadn't come to terms with and I was hiding from myself as much as from anyone else
So interesting, this whole thing about Karl. I remember you saying in an e-mail ages ago that you were having trouble finding his voice, while Dom's was so much clearer to you. Reading your fic now, it seems so obvious that Karl is the one you identify with. Or maybe it's just obvious to me now, after discussing it more. I actually have quite a bit more to say about this, but I'll cover it when I send you detailed fb on the epic, which I hope to do very soon!
b) if you're the Sue, you write about the other person more than about yourself; that seems clear -- because it's you who's in love with X or Y, so of course you think about X or Y a lot and describe X and Y and so forth. So that seems sort of logical to me, that the not-Sue can come more easily to the writer than the Sue.
Well, yes and no. For me it was a little different because I was quite frankly, completely in love with both of them for different reasons. It was just that personality-wise, I identified with one of them a lot more. But because I understood the one so well, I put more effort into "discovering" the other. Now, in some ways, I'm finding him more interesting. Hence the possibility of a switch.
This all seems very interesting and nice and hands-on craft-of-writing to me but I wonder if any creative writing courses would know what to do with the term 'Sue'?????
There must be a technical term for creative writing people? We're just taking the unusual approach of attacking the problem from the fanfic angle with our own unique vocabulary!
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Date: 2004-02-13 12:02 pm (UTC)God, I don't remember this email...??! It's repressed! But I was obviously struggling with this all along. And it's odd that it seems obvious to you; it seemed obvious to Laz as well who first pointed it out to me, and suddenly it all became clear to me. Schuppen von den Augen and all that. And then it became scary! Because Karl is, of course, the totally fucked-up abused one (well, they're both sort of screwed-up in their own way but I never investigated why Dom was but had, one day doing the dishes, come across why Karl was) so then I thought: if Karl is fucked up and Karl is my Sue then I must be fucked-up. So I stopped writing the epic because, eh, it freaked me out. Because I had made him into this abused child except I wasn't abused and suddenly it all felt psycho and weird.
For me it was a little different because I was quite frankly, completely in love with both of them for different reasons. It was just that personality-wise, I identified with one of them a lot more. But because I understood the one so well, I put more effort into "discovering" the other. Now, in some ways, I'm finding him more interesting. Hence the possibility of a switch.
Oh, I completely understand the 'in love with both', and the 'in love with the fact that these two are in love'. I've had that in many of the fics I've written, and in a way, I found it the most joyous place to be in. Someone wrote, can't remember who, some published theorist, that eroticism does not only reside in a person to identify with and a person to desire but can also reside in the whole *scene*, and that's what slash writing is for me.
How this relates to Sue-dom remains to be pondered.
There must be a technical term for creative writing people? We're just taking the unusual approach of attacking the problem from the fanfic angle with our own unique vocabulary!
Who knows! I don't know what those people talk about. I've never taken a creative writing course. And I've never come across any term remotely resembling MarySue in my reading of 'How to write a novel' books. Are orig-Sues the same as Mary-Sues? I wonder.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-02-10 03:45 pm (UTC)I'd like to know your thoughts, this being an ontological dilemma in much fic - the Sue battling to get out of our cool irony.
*posts and runs away* - I've been too afraid to comment in your lj ever since I wrote something particularly asinine once and regretted it wholeheartedly.
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Date: 2004-02-11 09:58 pm (UTC)*laughs like a lunatic*
I seem to have this scary reputation so that people get into these absurd knots. It's an LJ comment!!!! It is entirely nugatory!!!! Post already1111 liek 1111
Hm, *wonders what asinine comment is* Did I reply? Or make some mean remark about it? *worries*
Anyway, Mary Sue! the observer/writer in all of us? The dastardly objectifier? The wittering lust-slave? This is very difficult. I'm still pondering. In fact, I was thinking about the observer-thing over the last few days and may make another post about it. Because I do think, yes, that one of the MarySue's functions is to look at lust-object X and lust about it. So that it can sometimes happen, or has happened to me, at any rate, that one writes more about the non-Sue than about the Sue -- and in my case this led me to the mistaken conclusion that it was the written-lots-about-lust-object who was the Sue. But all the time, the Sue was the other person who was doing the lusting.
I hope this makes sense.
over-objectifying Elijah
Well, given it was Elijah... What else could you do? *guffaws*
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Date: 2004-02-12 04:16 pm (UTC)I think whatever you do there's something invidious about being either the watched-Sue or the watcher-Sue... but after all, invidiousness, vice and glory are a great part of the thrill of rps and slash.. So. Thus.
The great thing is that we get to play with both; especially for women, to usurp the privileged gaze and simultaneously enjoy the identification is a rare game.
Our Sues are our tethered beasts. Their yowls are heartening, don't you think?
(no you weren't nasty to me. I just said something specious and then wished I hadn't. you're right, I should have gotten over it - ecco!)
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Date: 2004-02-13 12:09 pm (UTC)Omg, this is almost scary. But yeah for the liberation of the Sue. Well, the recognition, at least, of the Sue. And you're right, the both spying-and-doing *is* the great thrill.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-02-14 09:11 am (UTC)Bits of me show up -- the observer, the straight-man in the joke, the one who loves -- but the voices in the stories are different and interesting to me because they *are* different. I don't feel like the characters are telling stories through me, but that something lets me open up to other ways of feeling and thinking. And I learn so much (I look at young men entirely differently now).