Lobelia the adverbially eclectic

because most songs are written in first to a second-person
That is interesting. It tends to be ballads that go for third person, doesn't it? It's nice, though, because many songs can be interpreted as addressing a male or a female 'you', *g*.

And second always puts me in an angsty mood. I think second is used best when the narrative requires distance and isolation from the main character.
Interesting!! I wonder why that is? Never having written second person (hm, at least I *think* I haven't) I don't know what mood it puts me into. Reading it makes it feel more intimate. Hm, so would you say that in that fic I analysed, the one written in second person, that we feel distanced from the 'you' character? I felt closer. Or does this only apply to you writing, not reading?

' And once I'm in a person, I never switch.
Aha. Sometimes I hit upon the person straight away, sometimes I have to fumble round for a while.

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Third. I want to write more in first though. I stopped writing in first almost entirely because I felt third gave me a kind of necessary distance I needed. I like writing in third person present, especially when I'm writing RPS. I'm trying to write more in past tense though, and think about what the story needs rather than sticking with first because it's easy. I often find myself switching tense, but rarely person. RPS in particular -- I've never tried to write RPS in first person, and I find it very difficult to read.

This is a drive-by comment, committed on my way to bed.

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Oh, and I've just remembered I have written second, but it turned out weird.

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I stopped writing in first almost entirely because I felt third gave me a kind of necessary distance I needed.
Yes, to me, too, third feels more distanced than first. But airgiodslv above said that she thought second felt very distanced which I find odd.

I like writing in third person present, especially when I'm writing RPS.
Some people said in the previous thread that for them first goes with present which sort of makes sense but I can also see how first would go with past (let me tell you about something that happened to me on the way to the colosseum...). Third plus present feels distanced and objective to me; I find it a very difficult mode and I forced myself to use it in Arthropods. After a while, it was becoming habit but it feels to me like a fad. When I write, that is.

I often find myself switching tense, but rarely person. ,/i>
And I do both. Sometimes it all comes to me, but sometimes I fumble about.

RPS in particular -- I've never tried to write RPS in first person, and I find it very difficult to read.

Really? Now why should rps be different from fps or orig? Or, rather, why is it for you, do you think?

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airgiodslv above said that she thought second felt very distanced which I find odd.

I've written second twice, and the first time it was kind of distanced, in that I was speaking in the voice of a faceless narrator, to some kind of vague reader-character. It was distanced because it felt like the actual characters in the story were being discussed by the narrator and the reader, so you're kind of distanced from them, but then again it assumes an intimacy between narrator and reader. Oh blimey, I'm so inarticulate. Anyway.

The other time was in that sekrit autobiographical fic I forced you to read. In that I wrote in three different tenses, beginning and ending with second. That felt very intimate, I think.

First present feels very uncomfortable to me. "I go over to the sink. I wash my hands." I don't think I've ever tried to write like that. Perhaps I should. On the other hand, third present really does feel quite natural to me now. But I know what you mean about habit. I sometimes feel that mode is almost too easy, and it makes me suspicious. I get the feeling it covers up flaws in the actual writing, although I'm not sure how that works.

Now why should rps be different from fps or orig? Or, rather, why is it for you, do you think?

I can only say that if I start to read an RPS fic in first person, I'm almost always immediately thrown out of the story. It goes back to my feeling that RPS is a kind of trick -- we are required to believe for the purposes of the story in the real person as fictional character. In FPS the character is already fictional, so that hurdle isn't there. If the author writes "I did this, I did that," I immediately think of that 'I' as the slasher herself, rather than Dom or Orli. It's as if she's there saying, "I am the actor Dom Monaghan." And I think, "No you're not, you're a slash fangirl." In third person I think it's much easier for the reader to suspend her disbelief. So I suppose it all goes back to distance.

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It's as if she's there saying, "I am the actor Dom Monaghan." And I think, "No you're not, you're a slash fangirl."
Evidently my ability to suspend disbelief has gone further but the fangirl masquerading as Dom is a hilarious image.

I've written a few first persons now although I found it hard to get into it. I tricked myself into it using the letter/ diary format, and then I think (I can't even remember) I wrote that Viggo in a trailer thing in first-person present.

"I go over to the sink. I wash my hands."
And yes, that does sound clinical. The way I got around it was to go for humour "Oh no, is that shit I've just stepped in? Bloody hell, so it is. Well, better wipe it off and hobble on back to the trailer. Orli's standing in the doorway. What does he want?" And so forth. You get the drift. It's fun to do, a kind of ranty monologue. If you wanted to practise it, that's the style you could pick.

Could.

How about first-person pov rps AU? *stares at string of acronym in that sentence and wonders what has happened to self in past 2 1/4 years*

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I think (I can't even remember) I wrote that Viggo in a trailer thing in first-person present.

Ah, you see -- just goes to prove that good writing can overcome these issues. Because I can't remember either.

It's fun to do, a kind of ranty monologue.

Oh yes -- I must do more like this. In fact I probably have done stuff like this in origfic, I can't remember now.

How about first-person pov rps AU? *stares at string of acronym in that sentence and wonders what has happened to self in past 2 1/4 years*

Heheh! I know, what have we become?? But this is a good idea. *ponders* Could well work.

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How about first-person pov rps AU? *stares at string of acronym in that sentence and wonders what has happened to self in past 2 1/4 years*

Heheh! I know, what have we become??
I know, and they say academics are jargon-heavy... Pshaw, I say, pshaw!

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I was speaking in the voice of a faceless narrator, to some kind of vague reader-character.

Come to think of it, maybe that wasn't second at all. Maybe it was just third with added weirdness.

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Added weirdness is always good. Possible the *one* crucial ingredient left out of academic analyses of narrative. *snorts*

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You pose so many interesting questions, and finally I have time to answer one! So I'm going to try and tackle all your points, in no particular order!

Generally I like to write third person (and I really wish I'd gotten around to answering your tense post, as I've had a major change in tense writing). I just think that there is a lot more scope for plot and character development this way. You can see more through a third person POV. Whilst in a first or second it is possible to learn more about one characters thoughts/actions/motives, it doesn't allow you to expand upon that to such a large degree.

I have, however, been known to struggle through a short story in second and find it quite exhilarating and a good challenge, it is (I find) hard not to automatically revert back to a third person. Whether this is simply a case of writing on autopilot or not, I don't know. If it is, then I think it a productive exercise to change and have to think in a more thorough, back to basics kind of a way.

As for the tense-association, I think this is a very interesting point. I find that it's a tricky one to address also, as I know for a fact that I associate second with present tense, but would have trouble pinning others down. I, myself, write third person in both past and present, but having in the past year started writing something major in present tense, that is now automatically how I begin to write and have to think more carefully about writing in past than I do in present. Therefor I think I associate third person with present, from a writing point of view, but from a reading point of view I expect, when I open most stories, that it will be in past. Am I waffling yet? As for first person, I think I would automatically think of present, yet when actually thinking harder about it, it lends itself to past in a much more earnest way. Actually, the more I'm talking, the more confused I'm getting about first person! I think because it is so much a case of journal-like thoughts in a way, the trains of thought that you work through when writing in first person, it's actually wildly hard to pin down.

How often do you write both tenses in your journal? I think first person narrative is a little like that; a mish mash of what's happened, what's happening, how you feel, and how you felt. Impossible to put a stamp on.

As for the reading side of things....I am actually hugely impartial. I like to read a well written piece of work, so whether that be first, second, third or millionth POV, that's really what I look for. Having said that, most of my favourites tend to be in the third person, simply because of the reasons I stated right at the top of this million page ramble to the death (if you're still reading, by the way, well done. Take a pound out of the till on your way out). Sometimes I think it can just be too easy to fall into the trap of mary-sueing yourself if you're writing in first person because it's such a small step from the character to you. It's more connected. Not to say there aren't absolutely genius writers who do wonderful first persons out there, but generally day-to-day third person seems to be a safer and more reliable bet (though that raises the argument that safer and more reliable are better which simply isn't the case...but I'm talking myself around in circles here...) As for second person, which I really do enjoy reading if it's done right, there really just isn't that much of it about!

Erm...I've rambled for *ages* and not answered all your questions....I shall stop clogging up your journal now!

hugs
x

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Ooh,

badgermonkey's friend -- I am honoured at being tigged!

You can see more through a third person POV.
What I like about it is that the narrator is more obvious, hovering around the character's head. And you can fly into and out of various characters' minds, even though fanficwriters tend to do that very rarely. Hm, I can feel another post coming on. Why on earth not, I wonder?

I have, however, been known to struggle through a short story in second and find it quite exhilarating and a good challenge, it is (I find) hard not to automatically revert back to a third person.
I've never tried my hand at second so I don't know what it feels like to me to write. REading it I always find it very close to first not third so what you say is interesting.

I associate second with present tense,
Interesting.. why? I can sort of see why.

As for first person, I think I would automatically think of present, yet when actually thinking harder about it, it lends itself to past in a much more earnest way.
I think there are two main types of first-person: the interior monologue / phonecall type which I associate with present, or the diary / autobiography type which I associate with past.

millionth POV
*giggles*,

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Ooh, badgermonkey's friend -- I am honoured at being tigged!

Haha. Well I have been meaning to tig you for ages and just never have! Do forgive:)

Hm, I can feel another post coming on. Why on earth not, I wonder?

I....will reply to your post! Hehe

I've never tried my hand at second so I don't know what it feels like to me to write. REading it I always find it very close to first not third so what you say is interesting.

I think because, as a writer/narrator of the story, second person is actually much more linked to YOU being in charge of the characters/plot, as is third person. I find that with first person I almost write as if I don't know what's about to happen/what I'm about to say. Second person is the perfect embodiment of control, you are telling your characters what they're going to do.

Although I do agree that to read it feels more closely linked to first person POV.

Interesting.. why? I can sort of see why.

In my head I feel that the telling-people-what-to-do thing that I just mentioned makes the whole thing feel almost a little more...hmm, what's the word I'm looking for? When I write second person I would prefer to write "You get up and find yourself stumbling into the shower" as opposed to "You got up and found yourself stumbling into the shower" but I'm not sure I can put my finger on why exactly that is. I think it is the control factor again; if you tell someone what they are going to or are doing as opposed to what they did there is a greater sense of omnipotence.

Voyeurism at its finest, and that's what writing (especially RPS, though I've not written any RPS in second person myself) is all about is it not?

I think there are two main types of first-person: the interior monologue / phonecall type which I associate with present, or the diary / autobiography type which I associate with past.

Yes, you and me both. However when thinking of the diary thing, I know my diary can very often be mixed, but I suppose that's just nitpicking!

And now I shall go and answer your latest post...This is all very interesting to think about!

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Second person is the perfect embodiment of control, you are telling your characters what they're going to do.

Yes, I think you're onto something there. After having finished my analysis of Nova's second-person pov fic, I've gone and read up a bit more about second-person and most narratologists discuss it in terms of the narratee, i.e. the person being addressed. I guess because the 'you' is like addressing the narratee or reader. But this is, I think, the pitfall of focusing only on the reader or the text and not on the *author*. Because what goes on in the author's brain when writing second-person is quite something else. And somehow, I'm sure, that translates itself to the reader's experience as well.

Although I do agree that to read it feels more closely linked to first person POV.
So this is also very interesting because it suggests that there are, in a way, *two* texts: the author's text and the reader's text, and they may overlap but they're not identical.

"You get up and find yourself stumbling into the shower" as opposed to "You got up and found yourself stumbling into the shower"
Heh, yes! It's the difference between imperative and indicative, commanding someone and describing what someone is doing. It all comes down to what you describe so well as control!

Voyeurism at its finest
Though voyeurism is peeking in on what someone is doing, and that would be the indicative mode (I guess), while controlling someone and telling them what to do isn't really voyeurism, is it? Am speculating wildly here but it's very interesting.

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Though voyeurism is peeking in on what someone is doing, and that would be the indicative mode (I guess), while controlling someone and telling them what to do isn't really voyeurism, is it? Am speculating wildly here but it's very interesting.

You raise a fine point here. I suppose I am no longer talking about second person when I make the voyeurism remark, but surely (RPS is mainly the focus of this theory) the want to write about these people and aim for it to be in a realistic manner; if we, as the people who write RPS, could see them all the time and knew what they were doing every moment of the day, we wouldn't write what we write? Or would we?

Would this then class as a vague attempt at voyeurism, or is it something else?

Hmm...

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if we, as the people who write RPS, could see them all the time and knew what they were doing every moment of the day, we wouldn't write what we write? Or would we?

Oh, but possibly we would!! It reminds me of that film Being John Malkovich where John Malkovich is shown to have just the most boring life imaginable. So I suspect if we had webcams glued to the foreheads of our rps darlings, we'd soon yawn and run and turn them off and scuttle off to weave fanfic fantasies!

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So I suspect if we had webcams glued to the foreheads of our rps darlings, we'd soon yawn and run and turn them off and scuttle off to weave fanfic fantasies!

So, really, it's back to the control thing? If they don't conform to our vision (as it were) then it is for us to run away and write them in a way that suits our own needs.

Interesting...

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Well, we know they don't conform to our visions (unless we're a tinhat, that is). :-)

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A good point well made! One doesn't want to be classed as a tinaht...Eep.

This is all very interesting, by the way.

:)

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jayest.livejournal.com

I almost always write third person.
I've only broken out of that twice, once with second person, which interestingly is one of the pieces that I'm actually proud of, and at present I'm trying to get my head around a first person fic, but struggling.

However, my thoughts on this: With longer fics, I NEED to write it third or first, and can only do second person for drabbles or ficlets, because I don't think that way, and so can't fake it for more than 1 page worth.

With third person POV, it can be broken down into Omniscent (Eye of God), Limited Omniscent (third person but looked at from the POV on only one character), and Objective (detached: only what is seen and heard, rather than felt and thought).
Out of these, it's normally the Limited Omniscent that I write (so far) and this one also seems to be the general standard.

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Why do you think you're struggling with the first person pov?

With third person POV, it can be broken down into Omniscent (Eye of God), Limited Omniscent (third person but looked at from the POV on only one character), and Objective (detached: only what is seen and heard, rather than felt and thought).
Hah! *hearts you* You're a Genette-ian at heart! Genette has three types: zero focalisation (focalisation is what he calls pov) - which is omniscient, sort of; internal focalisation -- where narrator knows as much as character (pov from only one character) and external focalisation --where narrator knows less than character (your detached objective pov). He doesn't, however, link these to person, so it's interesting to me that you do. Because you link your pov-from-one-character-only to third-person -- but I guess, a pov-from-one-character could be any person. Detached I do tend to associate with third person but I don't know why and will need to go away and ponder that.

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jayest.livejournal.com

I'm struggling with the POV for only ONE of the 3 characters I'm writing, which is the one I relate to the least. It's MY problem rather than a viewpoint problem, because I'm getting along fine with the others. I just don't know this charcter in my head yet.

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See, this is something the narrative analysts totally ignore: how do you as author relate to your characters? To me, how well I 'know' someone has a huge impact on how I write someone. And sometimes the characters take on a life of their own and resist being squashed into the particular niche of pov whatever that you had planned for them. It's finding the *voice* for a particular character that I find the most crucial key to getting the story to flow.

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and_chocolate

What person do you most like writing? First, second, third?

In my non-RPS work I've written first person, but looking back on it 7-8 years later, I'm thinking that it's nearly all crap. *g* I think first is really difficult to pull off in fanfic because it's *so* difficult to get the voice precisely right.

Third person seems to give you the leeway to "sound" like the character yet not have to always strictly maintain that voice.

Somehow, writing RPS in first person feels weird to me; I'm not quite sure why, though. Maybe because I need to distance myself a little when the "character" I'm writing about is a real person, in order to maintain my comfort level? I think that's why I originally fictionalized some aspects of my characterization of Elijah. I've only recently realized that some things about my!Elijah conflict with things I believe to be true about real!Elijah's personality. And yet I continue to write him with those characterization quirks, so I can only conclude that some part of me is uncomfortable with my fiction being too close to reality.

What person do you like reading?

I'll read either first or third, so long as it's well written. I really, really hate second. I've been known to read (short) things in second and like them, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

Do you switch persons once you've started writing a fic?

Not usually; I can see writing a long story where segments are in first and the rest is in third, but I haven't done it yet.

And finally, because a few people mentioned this in the thread about tenses: what tense do you associate each person with?

I think it's incredibly hard to pull off first-person present. I have not tried it, nor am I likely to. For third limited, I think either present or past tense work. For third omniscient (if it still exists in our pomo world), I'm not sure present tense would work, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

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I think first is really difficult to pull off in fanfic because it's *so* difficult to get the voice precisely right.
Oh, why do you think it's more difficult than in origfic?

Third person seems to give you the leeway to "sound" like the character yet not have to always strictly maintain that voice.
Yes! That's just what I like about it, too. The narrator can sort of hover off-screen and give gleeful little inbetween-the-lines commentary. But then I've written first-person with gleeful little off-screen commentary so both can be done.

Maybe because I need to distance myself a little when the "character" I'm writing about is a real person, in order to maintain my comfort level?
I think I've been so corrupted and habituated by rps that I don't even think of the real people any longer. They're just templates. Resource material. Or, as

ukcalico so wonderfully calls them, 'character-shaped bubbles'.

For third omniscient (if it still exists in our pomo world),
Well, it's rare in fanfic, and even rarer in rps! In fact, I don't think I've ever read a lotrips fic that has an omniscient author. Except for one I wrote myself. Er. I think it is incredibly difficult to do well, yet so impressive when it is done well.

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and_chocolate

Oh, why do you think it's more difficult than in origfic?

Because with fanfic you've got pre-existing characters whose "voices" (e.g., word choices, sentence structure, etc.) you've got to match, actors whose inflections you have to mimic; in original fic, you have the flexibility to make the character "sound" however you'd like.

I think I've been so corrupted and habituated by rps that I don't even think of the real people any longer. They're just templates. Resource material. Or, as ukcalico so wonderfully calls them, 'character-shaped bubbles'.

I just can't get to that point. I can't help but think of the real people, because it's the aspects of their personalities -- at least as much as they show them in public -- that attracted me to them in the first place.

In fact, I don't think I've ever read a lotrips fic that has an omniscient author. Except for one I wrote myself. Er. I think it is incredibly difficult to do well, yet so impressive when it is done well.

Well, I just wrote a short one (called Pull) that was aiming for omniscient. I'm not sure I completely succeeded.

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Url of your Pull?? *smiles sweetly*

And yes, I see your point about matching intonation and voice. I guess I am tethered enough still to the 'real' persons that I wouldn't give Dom an American accent et cetera.

I can't help but think of the real people, because it's the aspects of their personalities -- at least as much as they show them in public -- that attracted me to them in the first place.

I think it goes back to what attracted me which was the slashy fic and not the people. Knowledge about the people ('fannish' knowledge) sort of came as a side effect. I needed the knowledge to do the writing. After a flurry of fannishness, I think I'm now falling back into the original focus on the fic.

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novanumbernine.livejournal.com

i tend to go for third-person, with a fairly strict POV. i used to write second-person quite a lot, not so much now. i think the appeal of second-person POV is that it's a way of projecting your fic onto the character in question, or like you're telling them what to do, *g*.

my favourite POV in any fic i've written is viggo's in "viridian". it's first-person but the story is told as if it's being recounted to the orlando character - "i did this, then you did that." it sounds like a long accusation.

n.x :)

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