expletives and exclamations in hp

[lobelia321]

I cannot now remember exactly what expletives and exclamations are used in book-canon and can't be bothered walking down the stairs to find out (this is when indifference to canon reaches Dudleyesque proportions!) but in fanon there seem to be three main positions:

1) Words such as 'God', 'Jesus', 'Heavens' are avoided. Presumably this is because of an underlying belief that wizards and witches have no organised religion revolving around anything resembling Christianity. Instead, other expletives are invented, notably 'Merlin' (which I enjoyed reading the first ten times but now I don't think I need to read another 'Merlin' ever, ever again), 'hell' or 'hells' (an odd one as it still pertains to Christianity but presumably a 'darker' Christianity) and similar. Some of these can be wonderfully inventive (resonant8's 'Lethe and Phlegethon' will forever stay with me). Others grate a little and detract from the power that an expletive is intended to convey.

2) Words such as 'God' etc. are avoided. Instead, neutral words such as 'goodness' or 'bother' (from canon?) or, more strongly, 'shit' and 'fuck' are used. This is the compromise solution.

3) Words such as 'God' etc. are used without excuse or worry.

My own position tends to be an inbetween one. I am hesitant about the use of 'God'. There is no canon evidence that any religion revolving around a 'God' exists among wizards and witches, or ever has. However, curiously wizards do celebrate Christmas so they either believe in Christ or they used once to have a meaningful ritual involving Christ that is now long forgotten and remains only as a tradition. So I tend to make them say 'christ' but spell it with a small 'c' to denote that this is not a sacred Christ but a word that lives on as expletive but has no current liturgical value. I am more equivocal about 'god' and avoid it.

But it is a quandary. I love 'shits' and 'fucks' but there are moments when they are not right. When Harry slowly slides into Draco so that a blush runs hotly up and down Draco's spine and he can't help gasping... He could gasp 'shit' or 'bother' but I would really like to have him gasp 'god, oh god'.

What do others think? What ways have you found around this quandary?

Comments

[helenish.livejournal.com]

I pretty much go with people saying "fuck" a lot, although I admit that it cramps my style not to be able to use "Christ." I let the muggleborn use muggle swear words, so Hermione can say "Oh holy CHRIST!" and Harry can say
"God Alfucking MIGHTY!" although I believe only americans say that, so, no.

However, as Harry is muggleborn, he probably would say "god, oh, god." because your expletive inclinations are ingrained at a young age - I use all the swear words my father used when I was a kid "Jesus H. CHRIST!" and "Fucking A!" and the ones my mother used, occasionally "What in the Sam Hill!" and, you know, a few more I've picked up here and there.

I think Merlin is goofy, but technically correct. Still. Harry would probably pick up Merlin, but I doubt it would ever come to him in an organic way. When you drop a hammer on your thumb, or screw Draco Malfoy, it calls up your most primal expletive experiences, so he'd definitely say "God" or what have you. Draco, however, wouldn't. He also might find the 'god' thing a little weird of quaint or muggle-y.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

What in the Sam Hill
1111 Whoa. I don't know this one. It sounds baroquely twee. (And, um, reminds me of my former fandom and Samwise Gamgee...)

I'm with you on the swearwords-ingrained-in-childhood question: all very good and true points. *notes them duly* I think instinctively I was already thinking that, too, but just hadn't rationalised it as nicely.

Draco, however, wouldn't.
This is precisely my quandary. Because I am Sueing Draco in a big way, so it's Draco's pov most of the time and what the hell does he gasp when being fucked by Dudley??? This is why I resurrected christ because I wanted a word that a non-muggleborn would use organically (as you say) but that we muggle readers could also empathise with (and I can't empathise with 'Merlin', it always jars and catapults me into the AU-fantasy world at a moment when I might want to be catapulted right into an orgasmic moment).

Also, weren't there any other bloody wizards besides Merlin? Hm, perhaps I should revive Ged or Oz. Hm, now I'm having bunnylets!!!

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Or Catweazle! I completely forgot about Catweazle!

Draco (drops hammer onto foot): "Oh Cat-fucking-weazle."

Crabbe (discovers Goyle bending over in doughnut shape and sucking own cock): "Catweazle!!!"

[isiscolo.livejournal.com]

Or as Sirius says in at least one of fabularasa's stories, "Jesus Christ on toast!" We need more colorful expletives, darn it.

And see my comment below - Draco says 'God' in canon.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

And see my comments below: canon-shmanon!

[yellow-oranges.livejournal.com]

I haven't written any HPfic, but I'm big on Harry/Draco. Especially when they hate each other a lot yet still can't resist getting drawn in. Yum.

As for your quandary, How about gasping "Harry"? ;)

Why do wizards celebrate Christmas?!

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

How about gasping "Harry"?
Yes, this is a way out but it is not always right in every situation. And sometimes I want an expletive, not an address. But fair point.

Why do wizards celebrate Christmas?!
Well, they all do, don't they? They go home for Christmas holidays and they give each other knitted jumpers as Christmas gifts and send cards and so forth. Why they do this I have no idea. I suspect it's because JKR just didn't think this one through at all. But it does give me that 'christ' loophole, *g*!

[cangetmad.livejournal.com]

Well, canonically, didn't the wizarding worlds split from the muggle world after the period of witch hunts, which were I think between the 1300s and the 1600s? So any Christian traditions and language before then would have a legacy in modern wizarding culture, even if all witches and wizards had immediately stopped believing in Christianity at that point, which they probably didn't, though they might well have by now. So, they'd certainly say "oh, christ", or something related to that.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Aha!!! Now this is more like it! This I like!! And this makes sense!

It also reminds me of the whole tradition that links witches to the Devil. So if they have the devil, of course they have a god: they just don't like him; they pay allegiance to the Other One. Hah!

So having Draco gasp 'oh god yes' is a bit like having a Muggle gasp 'oh satan yes'.

!!!!!

But whatever wizards believe in now, in the modern era, it does seem logical that they would say 'god' and other expletives left over from before 1300. Because expletives are old, very old.

*squeezes you!!!*

[as-i-am.livejournal.com]

Much along these same lines (but a different fandom), I as well can't be bothered to go get the books and look, but in Lord of the Rings (the movies) there were a few things that I caught. Again, not sure if it's this way in the books (although there is one thing in the books that doesn't make sense either, but I'll get to that), but they were there in the cinematic versions.

In the movies there are two instances--Boromir says "What new devilry is this?" And Sam says "Back, you devils!" I would think that the use of the world 'devil' would imply some Christian mythology at work. I mean, after all, to know of the devil, wouldn't you have to know of God? This doesn't exactly fit in the Lord of the Rings universe (they've got the Valar, after all).

Along these same lines, but a bit different, in the books Tolkien has them using a Julian calendar to tell what month it is. A calendar that won't come into existance for quite some time. I always find this interesting, as one can argue certainly that he did it to create familiarity with the reader--but with Tolkien's attention to detail, this seems a glaring oversight.

Just had to put my two cents in.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

I'm not a Tolkien head nor do I have an online version of Lotr here nor do I plan to comb through the printed version line by line BUT it does seem odd to me that there is a mention of 'devils'. I can't remember this being mentioned in the books but then my memory may be faulted. Otoh, one could argue that devils is used in the sense of 'demon, bad thing'. But still, Tolkien was very fastidious about these things. Unlike JKR, he was an obsessive maniac when it came to his universe.

As to the months, I seem to recall reading somewhere that he did translate them from whatever calendar was in use in the Shire to make it easier for the readers, just as he translated 'Maura Labingi' into 'Frodo Baggins'. (Coz that is wot Frodo is called in the Shire, believe it or not.)

[isiscolo.livejournal.com]

'God' is canon - here are a few quotes from Goblet of Fire:

A gleeful smile spread across Malfoy's pale face. "Don't tell me you don't know?" he said delightedly. "You've got a father and brother at the Ministry and you don't even know? My God, my father told me about it ages ago..."

The face of Cornelius Fudge appeared upside down over Harry; it looked white, appalled. "My God - Diggory!" it whispered. "Dumbledore - he's dead!"

'Merlin' is canon as well, although not the way it's [over]used in fanfic. It's used once in GoF and several times in OotP, but only in the expletive phrases "Merlin's beard" and "in the name of Merlin". It's never used alone (e.g., Merlin, that boy could certainly suck cock!) or in any other combination, although I find "Merlin's balls" to be acceptable.

Look, I'm Jewish. I still say "Christ" as an expletive. (Actually, I see no reason why wizards and witches can't be religious. I know scientists who are, after all.) So bring on the "Oh, God, YES!"

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

I cling to any excuse that will allow me to make Draco gasp 'oh god, yes'. However, it concerns me that the 'god' does not appear in canon until GoF and OotP, that is, in later books when JKR had got careless. She just hasn't thought that one through and whereas in the earlier books she maybe hedged her bets, in the later ones she forgot to edit (as we all know) and a few 'gods' slipped in.

So: am sceptical of post-PoA canon!! (My god, I never thought I'd have critically nuanced *feelings* about the canon... *screams*)

Otoh, maybe there *are* earlier examples and you just haven't quoted them here.

So: why does Draco so rarely say 'god' in fanon then?

As to the Jewish and saying 'Christ': I presume you are Jewish and living in the USA or somewhere that is culturally Christian in context. I may ask my Israeli friends whether anyone uses 'Christ' as an expletive in Hebrew but my guess is that the 'Christ' is a cultural spill-over just as the celebrating of Christmas among some Jews (and Muslims, for that matter) in Christian contexts is. But the wizards in canon live in a separate world; they are much more ghettoised and it seems that spill-overs of this sort, especially among mudblood-hating Malfoys, would be rare. I mean, imagine you were living in some fanaticised Christian-hating ghetto, bowing down to the great anti-Christ-Volde-rabbi: then you wouldn't be saying 'Christ'. These are reasons why I'm sceptical that Draco says 'god' (in the wizardverse as it should be, not as shoddy!canon has it) -- even though I am personally very keen on having Draco say 'god'.

*amazes self at having opinions about this...??!!* Such is the insanity of fandom.

God, Christ, Jesus, fuck!!!!!!

[isiscolo.livejournal.com]

So: am sceptical of post-PoA canon!! (My god, I never thought I'd have critically nuanced *feelings* about the canon... *screams*)

"God, this place is going to the dogs," said Malfoy loudly. "That oaf
teaching classes, my father'll have a fit when I tell him." (PoA)

I didn't find 'God' in the first two books, but "Good Lord" is used by both Tom (the barkeep of the Leaky Cauldron) and Arthur Weasley.

Anyway, I really don't see a dichotomy between the casual not-very-religious religion that most people (outside the US) have, and the wizarding world. Why wouldn't a wizard believe in (a) God? The witch-persecuting sects aside, of course. In fact there are lots of books (the Deryni series comes to mind) where magic is regarded as a God-given gift. And even among the areligious, the wizard and Muggle population are not that separated - after all, they speak the same language, and nearly all wizarding families must have Muggle neighbors (as Hogsmeade is stated to be the only all-wizard town in Great Britain).

BTW you might find this post useful. (A locked post, so others reading this thread will not be able to see it unless they are on my flist.)

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

I have also just changed my mind on this completely because of something brandnewgun said. So heh, have had 180 degree turnaround within the space of ten minutes. (How I love LJ sometimes!)

And I replied to that comment, too, but I've lost the url so you have to scroll up on this page, ack. It was something about the other tradition that links witches to devil worship. Which implies that they believe in god but pay no allegiance to Him.

And 'Good Lord', heh, could that be a sort of anti-Voldemort? Who's the Bad Lord, as it were?

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Which doesn't solve the problem why wizards celebrate Christmas. Bugger.

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

(1) Because almost every culture ever known to humanity has had some sort of celebration on or around the winter solstice.

(2) Because it's big and gaudy, and wizards like things that are big and gaudy.

(3) Because JKR couldn't resist the temptation to have fairy lights that were actual fairies.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

I love this discussion! I'm off to France now for a week but do please keep talking amongst yourselves, friendlets, and I look forward to reading it all upon my return!!

*hugs*

[sheldrake.livejournal.com]

They say stuff like 'bloody' and 'git' don't they? I don't know what that means. But I can't really cope with too many 'Merlin's and I've yet found a fandom in which I can stomach 'gods' plural, I'm afraid.

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

I'm growing to hate 'Merlin,' and any sort of polytheistic oaths ('Lord and Lady,' 'gods,' etc.) would require serious, serious underpinning in the story before I would accept it.

I mean, I could totally be made to believe in a story in which Hermione goes away to university and becomes deeply involved in some sort of neopagan feminist wicca thing, and adopts the language -- but if that's not in your backstory, then if Hermione says, 'gods,' I'm just going to laugh.

I've followed the Helen method of having the muggle-borns say "god" and "christ" just like the rest of us do, and, when dealing with purebloods, either writing around it or reluctantly contenting myself with "fuck" and the like. But I too sometimes long to make my purebloods gasp "oh, god," and may be unable to resist doing so at some point. The fact that JKR does it too won't really make me feel any better about it, though. To me it sounds out of voice, even if it's canonically supportable.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Come to think of it, there is a rl polytheistic (is this a word?) oath: Oh ye gods. People do say that sometimes, at least in Australia and the UK.

The fact that JKR does it too won't really make me feel any better about it, though. To me it sounds out of voice, even if it's canonically supportable.
You have put your finger exactly on the mark that's been bothering me! Why I said canon-shmanon to begin with but didn't really have any arguments to support that besides, what you say, a sort of gut aversion to purebloods saying 'God'. Otoh, as you, I long to make them gasp it so should, theoretically, be glad of canon sanction. And also, I sort of accept brandnewgun's point about old oaths being left over from the time before the wizarding world split off from the Christian world.

Somehow, having Draco gasp "Catweazle" in mid-orgasm, doesn't have quite the same ring to it...

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

People do say "Ye gods." (I've even read, in mainstream stories, people saying, "Ye gods and little fishes," but I've never heard anyone say it out loud.)

But it always sounds rehearsed, even when people say it in real life -- it's not something that springs to the lips spontaneously.

Which I think is why it doesn't sound right in sex scenes. You don't want to give the impression that your character is carefully choosing his words while he's naked and being molested. (Usually not, anyway.)

I sort of accept brandnewgun's point about old oaths being left over from the time before the wizarding world split off from the Christian world.

Well, in fact, even our religious oaths are usually left over from an earlier, more religious time -- I mean, an awful lot of atheists still say "Goddamn," even though they don't believe in either god or damnation.

I wonder if maybe wizards would still use oaths from Shakespeare's time? Zounds and 'sblood and things like that? It would take a good ear to make that sound natural in dialog, but it could be done, I think.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

I have decided that they are going to be calling upon wizards of the world united, past and present:

Oh Cat-fucking-weazle!
By Endora!
Ged and Sparrowhawk!
Of all the Samanthas...!
Oh, Gandalf!

*looks at list*
*despairs of ever writing a convincing sex scene with this obstreperous lot*

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

But on the bright side, you're now very well prepared for a scene in which Draco drops something heavy on his foot.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

I hadn't thought of this! You are absolutely right!

Now I just have to devise elaborate plot deviations to get him to drop something on his foot. Perhaps he could drop Dudley on his foot.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

P.S. Basically it boils down to atmosphere. To me, an outlandish oath in any sort of bed/sex situation draws too much attention to itself and attention away from the erotic swoonery. They can say 'Merlin's arse' all they like when dropping spanners on their feet or meting out detentions, but when blushing in each others' arms: no no no. It's got to be an oath that blends in with the readers' world, no matter how canonical a more outlandish one would be. I'm not writing an ethnographic tract, after all, but porn for muggles.