are paid accounts moral?
Oct. 17th, 2005 08:04 pmI found out why I don't see tags. It's because they're only visible in the S2 style but I use the S1 style because I hate the S2 style, and I customize my Flist pages so that everyone's LJ looks like my own. When I accidentally stumble onto somebody's specially personalised S2 page, I go AACK from shock and hotfoot it out of there. *is luddite* So, I guess, that's life without tags for me.
Is a paid LJ account a morally responsible thing?
I have had a paid account in the past. I have paid for some months, I have had some months given to me. I have uploaded icons at will and enjoyed reading hundreds of my last-saved comments but ultimately the advantages were minimal. I don't use all that many icons, and these days I don't get enough tigs to need a huge, long recent-comments list. Also, I can do a poll without the clickety-clickety things, right?
The main reason I paid for the account was not because I wanted the extra modcons but because I felt it was important to support this wonderful site whose creators put their time and effort and energies into it all for free and from whose kind generosity I benefit every day. So I thought I need to support this, I will pay.
Then I had a saving-money drive (FlyLady!) and let the paid account lapse. Now I'm thinking: what is more ethical, paying for an LJ account or using the service for free?
Paying for the account means I am supporting the lovely people who are providing this exquisite service for free.
Not paying for the account means that I can use that money to pay for some other charity that is perhaps more in need of money and more worthy (?) than the evening funsite for a wage-earning, TV-earning, broadband-paying, never-gone-hungry woman in one of the richest capitalist states of the world. I never used to give money to charities but now I donate to three and plan a fourth donation round.
Is paying for LJ frivolous and morally dubious? Or is it just totally neutral and like buying yourself a chocolate bar as a treat (or renting a Sims game...)? Or is it ethically reprehensible to continue using this site for free without giving anything back?
And please, I implore you: do NOT suddenly 'give' me a paid account. I know that some people post veiled 'please pay for my account' pleas but as you can see, this is NOT that type of post!! Because a paid account (paid by someone else!) will only compound my quandary because then it will be ethically problematic that the unknown donor is not giving that money to a charity of my choice and using it to fund my frivolous online chattings.
I am serious about this!! (btw, is there a way to 'unpay' an account once it's been paid? Can the gift be refused, Trojan horse that it may be?)
Is a paid LJ account a morally responsible thing?
I have had a paid account in the past. I have paid for some months, I have had some months given to me. I have uploaded icons at will and enjoyed reading hundreds of my last-saved comments but ultimately the advantages were minimal. I don't use all that many icons, and these days I don't get enough tigs to need a huge, long recent-comments list. Also, I can do a poll without the clickety-clickety things, right?
The main reason I paid for the account was not because I wanted the extra modcons but because I felt it was important to support this wonderful site whose creators put their time and effort and energies into it all for free and from whose kind generosity I benefit every day. So I thought I need to support this, I will pay.
Then I had a saving-money drive (FlyLady!) and let the paid account lapse. Now I'm thinking: what is more ethical, paying for an LJ account or using the service for free?
Paying for the account means I am supporting the lovely people who are providing this exquisite service for free.
Not paying for the account means that I can use that money to pay for some other charity that is perhaps more in need of money and more worthy (?) than the evening funsite for a wage-earning, TV-earning, broadband-paying, never-gone-hungry woman in one of the richest capitalist states of the world. I never used to give money to charities but now I donate to three and plan a fourth donation round.
Is paying for LJ frivolous and morally dubious? Or is it just totally neutral and like buying yourself a chocolate bar as a treat (or renting a Sims game...)? Or is it ethically reprehensible to continue using this site for free without giving anything back?
And please, I implore you: do NOT suddenly 'give' me a paid account. I know that some people post veiled 'please pay for my account' pleas but as you can see, this is NOT that type of post!! Because a paid account (paid by someone else!) will only compound my quandary because then it will be ethically problematic that the unknown donor is not giving that money to a charity of my choice and using it to fund my frivolous online chattings.
I am serious about this!! (btw, is there a way to 'unpay' an account once it's been paid? Can the gift be refused, Trojan horse that it may be?)
(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-17 06:59 pm (UTC)I think morals don't really come into it. LiveJournal have made the calculations - it's obviously worth it to them to have accounts available for free. If it were such a drain on their resources they would stop letting you do it. There are also ways to make money from it other than the selling of accounts. People who have free accounts are freeloading, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. On the whole, forums have something like a 10% participation (vs. lurking) rate, and web people know this. So the more people they have with LJs, paying or not, the more money they will make.
OTOH, paying for one isn't necessarily morally bankrupt either - they may find an application for the software, using in part your money, that turns out to be brilliant and world-changing.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-18 08:26 pm (UTC)It is true: they are offering the free gift of LJ.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-17 07:13 pm (UTC)I believe paying for lj is morally neutral. I don't pay for lj out of the same pool of money I use for contributing to charities. I pay because I like being able to do polls, and because while I had no internet access I wanted to be able to post by email (which I did).
(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-18 08:28 pm (UTC)S2 can be like S1?? How do you get it to do that? You interest me!! I read loads of your recs in the last few days, btw, mainly SGA. Thanks so much for reccing them! Most of them were so-so but some were fun. And most had some good bits but then some really oh-no bits.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-21 10:40 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-25 09:37 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-26 07:36 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-26 07:39 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-17 07:30 pm (UTC)Both of these are for entirely selfish reasons -- nothing to do with giving something back to LJ, though I certainly don't mind that aspect of it! -- but thus my LJ sub falls into the 'pampering luxuries' basket, along with Lush bath-bombs and travelling first-class to Plymouth. They primarily benefit me, but by making me a calmer and happier person there is a knock-on effect for those with whom I come into contact.
I do have a permanent account as well, and that had a little more to do with investing in LJ as a Good Thing. But the switch from paid to permanent has less moral slope to it than the switch from free to paid.
Oh, re S2: I switched a community from S1 to S2, same style, and it kept all the customisations -- to the extent that it took me some time to realise that the switch had worked! So, S2 not always bad, can be 'xactly like S1 except with tags.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-18 08:29 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-17 07:46 pm (UTC)Well, paying for something that I consider worth the price is totally alright with me. On the other hand, I'd have no problems with keeping a free account if this was what I wanted (i.e. if didn't need tons of icons). IMO offering free accounts is a win-win situation for both parties and if the lj people couldn't afford a certain percentage of free accounts I'm sure they wouldn't offer them.
Or are you asking whether you shouldn't use your money in a better way, that is support a 'real' charity instead of spending money on something superfluous?
I don't see lj as a charity, but as a more or less profit-making organizing for whose services I'm willing to pay a fair price, so these are two different shoes for me.
And yes, you could certainly spend your (time and) money for better causes if that's what bothers you.
But wouldn't life be awfully boring without some frivolous and (slightly) morally dubious elements?
(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-18 08:30 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-17 10:32 pm (UTC)i like S2 but mine looks very, very simple, b/c readability is my primarty concern (i function in words, not pretty images :-)
(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-17 10:34 pm (UTC)So, yes, you can have your cake and eat it too??? :-)
(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-18 08:32 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-17 10:47 pm (UTC)Is it morally reprehensible for you to go out to a restaurant, when other people go hungry, and you could donate to a charity that provides them with food? How about buying meat? How about buying spices to cook with -- they're expensive and unnecessary?
You could live in an unheated shack, eating unsalted rice, wearing sack-cloth and donating all the money that you don't require to survive as well as donating all of your time to good works. I've known of a very few people who, more or less, have done exactly that.
But most people I know, including myself, aren't ready for that level of commitment to the universal good of humanity. We divide our resources as we each feel is best. So which would make you happier and Better: paid membership in LJ or donating to a cause dear to your heart?
Just don't make a decision out of unexamined guilt.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-18 08:35 pm (UTC)Maybe this whole post has been a displacement post and what it's really about is my pennypinching miserliness?? Which I also never knew I had until around March when I started discovering money and paid off my credit card. Now I keep every receipt, including for an Aero bar!!!
(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-18 05:46 am (UTC)What all the rational people said.
I pay cos I get value and I have enough to want to give value back. I pay for shareware, and I try to buy music from the band's web site instead of amazon, so they get more money. It's my personal attempt to compensate creators.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-18 08:36 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-18 11:18 am (UTC)i am totally with what giglet said, there are so many more things you pay money for that you don't absolutely need.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-18 08:37 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-18 09:20 pm (UTC)To me, I could afford it and I was actively using the service every day -- it would have been more immoral to me to not pay and continue freeloading just because I could.
Of course now with the permenent account I don't need to worry about that anymore. And if I didn't there may have been times when I let my paid account lapse because I judged I couldn't afford it -- that there was something I needed the money for more and I am grateful to LJ that they give people who can't afford it the option of a free journal. It makes it an easier expense to cut when money is tight.
But to say that paying for a service you use is immoral because it's not helping starving children or disaster victims or whatever? That way lies madness.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-20 09:37 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-18 09:43 pm (UTC)I figure that because I can afford to have a paid account, I am helping support the system so that it will be there for people who can't afford a paid account, and while that's not the same thing as charity, there is an aspect of giving involved. Thus, no guilt.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-20 09:38 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-18 09:56 pm (UTC)Your decision in this matter is your personal responsibility. Figure it out for yourself, because, honestly? The fact that you can think this question has any real moral importance in the grand scheme of things indicates that your life already had a level of frivolity to it that a mere $25 a year one way or the other cannot match. (This is not meant to be a criticism, btw... if I thought there was something actually wrong with being frivolous, I wouldn't be taking my time to post this utterly frivolous reply of my own).
(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-25 09:48 pm (UTC)And yes, I have a problem with frivolity but am now on the look-out for it. Thanks for tigging, stranger!
(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-18 10:17 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-25 09:49 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-19 03:46 am (UTC)As you can see, by your logic things get ridiculous very, very quickly. If having a paid LJ account is morally wrong because that's $5 you could have donated to charity, then every single thing in your life that is not stricly needed for basic existence is also morally wrong and sorry, but that's no way to live.
If you'd rather spend the $5 on charity instead of a paid LJ account, that's wonderful. But don't put it in preachy moralistic terms unless you're willing to get rid of everything and spend all your free time working or volunteering.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-19 03:51 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-25 09:56 pm (UTC)Do you use your home computer for work?
Yes!! Too much! Well, not too much, I guess, seeing that it was bought for me by work...
Do you use your home internet connection for work?
Yes! Alas.
Will you lose your job if you don't have internet and a computer at home?
No, but it will make doing my job very, very impossibly difficult.
You're in the Harry Potter fandom, aren't you?
Now that's a very tricky question. What does 'being in the fandom' mean? If you mean, am I obsessed and drooling, as I was with lotrips for many a month, then no. But if it means do I read the odd recced fic and love it and adore the fandom's fanonish ways, then hm, yes. But is that being in the fandom? As opposed to observing the fandom at play?
I hope you didn't buy the books but only borrowed them from the library.
Well, buying books I actually do not find amoral, especially if it is for living authors because that supports them and supports literature. I did, however, only buy the books up to book 4 for t'children because then I stopped loving them and found them appalling and can only cope when given plot summaries by friends.
I hope you didn't spend money going to see the films in the theatre.
No, I didn't ! I can't stand the films!! I saw film 1 and hated it!
Are you eating only enough food to keep you from going hungry?
Oh goodness, no. Should I be?
Do you drink sodas or eat snacks that have no nutritional value?
No!
Do you only buy the cheapest clothes possible to keep you warm?
Heh. The cheapest clothes possible is an interesting one. But I would have to say 'no'. Well, I buy the most expensive ones possible for my budget. Which half the time end up being the cheapest. :-(
You write fic, don't you?
Yes, but haven't posted in months, alas.
Shouldn't you be spending that time doing something productive (working? volunteering?) rather than wasting it writing fanfic?
Okay, this is one thing I have worked through, among other things in counselling. It is an interesting question and I think one that dogs several of my fanwriting friends from time to time. I still have to be on the look-out for my anti-frivolous, guilt-induced moments but I try very hard to have a balance these days.
Thank you!
(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-19 04:07 am (UTC)Definitely, use the lj for free. It doesn't hurt lj, if that's what you're thinking. Using lj for free is not immoral. If it was a problem for them, they wouldn't offer it. They offer it, at a small price, for those who want special features (which only, like, amount to being able to put a pic at the top and extra icons, as near as I can tell). And do good, either with money or with your time and energy (letter writing, essay writing), as you see fit. Tons of actual causes could benefit.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-25 09:58 pm (UTC)here via friendsfriends (<lj user=metafandom>)
Date: 2005-10-19 09:42 pm (UTC)The rest of the comments have covered a lot of my thoughts, but nobody's brought up the other thing that immediately came to my mind, which is business ethics vs. consumer ethics. A lot of people talk about the ethical responsibilities of companies, and I totally agree with that (blue company shopper here) -- but I also think it goes both ways, and consumers have an ethical responsibility to support ethical companies, thus allowing them to continue their ethical business practices (and possibly influence the other companies to do the same, if they see our hypothetical ethical company prospering).
Now, obviously I think LJ is ethical or I wouldn't be working here! I especially like the small-company nature of it -- I'd so much rather support LJ/6A with my dollars and my usage than, say, Myspace, which is owned by Fox, or even Blogger (owned by Google). If I'm given a chance, I always go for the small company vs. the big conglomerate, and I think that's my responsibility as a consumer. But it gets kind of fuzzy when you get into the scenario with LJ, where you can use the basics for free and payment gives you access to the bells and whistles.
Without going into things that are covered by my NDA, I can say that if a certain number of people didn't subsidize free accounts by having paid accounts, LJ wouldn't be able to survive. Likewise, if we didn't have income, we wouldn't be able to afford servers, bandwidth, salaries, etc. And like I said, nobody's getting rich off LJ, but hey, enlightened self-interest here -- I need to eat!
In the end, for me, it all boils down to the fact that I think LJ is providing a very powerful, empowering, and transformative service. The nature of my job means that I see so many people whose lives were changed for the better by having this platform, this outlet, this community. Six Apart's "corporate goal" is all about making the world a better place by, essentially, giving voice to the voiceless. For me, that's something I can really get behind, and I still vote with my dollars even though I work here -- I work cheaply, I pay for others' accounts instead of comping them, etc. I guess ultimately it's up to everyone -- I think it's a cause and a business worth supporting, so I do.
Re: here via friendsfriends (<lj user=metafandom>)
Date: 2005-10-19 10:43 pm (UTC)Thanks so much for responding! Your reply is extremely interesting to me and convinced me immediately to consider going back to paid. What you say makes absolute sense, about ethical consumership. I like that concept a lot. And you, and a number of other people who've responded, have made me think further about how it's not really an issue of either/or. After all, I have a salary that's not huge but it does allow me to donate to charities and to pay what after all amounts to pocket money for LJ.
I am intrigued by your job. How did you get into it? What is an NDA? What is Six Apart? How did you know I was an academic? Does the goat really exist???
Re: here via friendsfriends (<lj user=metafandom>)
Date: 2005-10-19 11:04 pm (UTC)An NDA is a nondisclosure agreement, basically meaning that I can't talk about company secrets (pretty standard in the industry), and Six Apart is the company that Brad sold LJ to back in January -- he couldn't keep up the programming end and the business end of things, so he searched long and hard for a company that agreed with him on how a company should be run so they could take care of the business end. We've been joking for years that our guiding principle is pretty much "don't be evil", and they think the exact same way. :)
And yes, Frank exists! In the hearts and minds of LJ users everywhere :) We don't have an actual goat in the office, and man, I don't even remember where the Frank the Goat as the mascot came from, but he's such a fixture around here that a few months ago, when our general manager went on vacation and went to the zoo, he took pictures of himself with a goat just so he could have his very own goat userpic. *g*
As for the academic -- your interests list made it a fair guess. I actually find LJ so fascinating from a sociological persective; I swear, if I were a sociologist instead of a theologian, I could get my doctoral dissertation out of this place. The rest of the staff fortunately find it funny when I spend five pages in an email talking about community norms. Heh.
Re: here via friendsfriends (<lj user=metafandom>)
Date: 2005-10-25 10:03 pm (UTC)*laughs insanely* I just love this so much.
And no, I didn't know people worked as volunteers. Actually, I suppose I thought everyone who worked on LJ was a volunteer. A bunch of strange goat-shaped geeks, that was more or less my image. *gg*
Oh, and the sociology thing? Absolutely. It fascinates me endlessly. Recently, two people on LJ died and this led me to thinking along rather morbid and strange paths about the future of LJ, how we're only at the beginning of the online revolution and can't even conceive of a future in which there will be pages and pages of graveyard journals, including ours. It is very strange to think about, and spooks me a bit. Thinking about LJ is a bit like thinking about death (for me, weirdly) because it is so dependent on people's signs of life. It is very disturbing when people just disappear, strike their account, never post -- and then when suddenly they actually do seem to have died, it reinforces the worry about everyone else.
Hm, that was a rather morbid digression. And not really "academic"...
Re: here via friendsfriends (<lj user=metafandom>)
Date: 2005-10-25 10:12 pm (UTC)We also, actually, have a lot of times when someone gets in touch with us and says "hey, i think so-and-so is trying to kill herself". Something about the nature of LJ means that people want to tell it their most intimate secrets, including plans for self-destruction. I can't count the number of times when I've gotten a call at 4AM because someone was awake and saw a support ticket from someone's friend, saying that their friend was in the middle of a suicide attempt. That's kind of the same thing you talk about, because sometimes we hear back from the cops after we call them ... and sometimes we don't, and the person never posts again. And sometimes we can't find enough information to get the cops to the person, and then we just have to wait, and wait, and wait ...
Re: here via friendsfriends (<lj user=metafandom>)
Date: 2005-10-25 10:09 pm (UTC)*gg*
I'm so glad I met you! *hops up and down*
Re: here via friendsfriends (<lj user=metafandom>)
Date: 2005-10-25 10:12 pm (UTC)Re: here via friendsfriends (<lj user=metafandom>)
Date: 2005-10-25 10:15 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-19 11:29 pm (UTC)Free users made LJ, and continue to make it better - just by being here, sharing your lives and thoughts, commenting, creating & sharing userpics, sometimes buying LJ gifts for other users, creatign & maintaining communities, creating & sharing styles & themes & mood icons, and giving us feedback about the application itself.
Paid users make LJ possible - their money is our revenue. They do all the above, and more, since revenue pays for our servers, staff, etc.
Another way to look at it is that paid users are a relatively small portion of our user community who pay for all the free users' accounts. So by buying a paid account, you are not just supporting us staffers, you are supporting everyone who uses LJ.
We made a decision a long time ago to never indundate you with advertising, free or paid. This kills what would be the easiest way for us to make the most money. To motivate people to get paid accounts, they get more features and storage space.
Now does that mean that I am saying that free users are being unethical? Heck no! As stated above, LJ wouldn't be LJ without free users. We want it to be an individual decision - are you in a position to give back to the LJ community and/or to help us make the tool better by helping to fund it? Do you give back in other ways? Do you do both? Do you not care and just want the free stuff? It's totally up to you. We just want to make it attractive enough to pay for if you are inclined, so that we can keep running.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-25 10:05 pm (UTC)