slashy moments

[lobelia321]

kyuuketsukirui asked me what I meant when I wrote Annie Proulx's short story is the origfic of someone who is a slasher at heart. The film is made by a man. The story is slashy. The film is not.. This is what I replied:

Ah, I'm so glad you asked this! But kind of daunted as well because I have a whole theory and philosophy about this!

In sum, my notion is this: there is a thing called slashiness and it goes beyond fandoms; it's a women's thing and it involves loving the idea of man-on-man action. I have a few ideas why women go for this; I myself include the following reasons: wish to imagine a relationship between equals in a patriarchal world full of gender inequality where straight relationships in fiction and film are 99 per cent of the time portrayed with stupid female characters; the buzz of transgression; subverting the male-male world, gaining access to all-male homosociality by exposing the homoerotica underneath it all (being able to lust over Blackhawk Down!); some as-yet undiscovered and unexplained slash-gene, *g*. Slashy is not the same as gay.

I've become quite good at spotting slashy moments in literature. One of these days, I will compile a list of quotations, juxtaposing slashy moments with gay moments. Men write about man-on-man in a different way from women, this includes both gay men and straight men. Annie Proulx is totally slashy: she gets off on the men together and she loves the romance and she imagines the men as totally manly (slashers love manly men and suppressed emotions). When I read Lian Hearn's Across the Nightingale Floor, I thought I was reading a book by a man (I confused Lian with Liam). Then I got to the boy-on-boy action at the end (totally gratuitous!) and thought, hm, so I googled Lian Hearn and sure enough, it was a woman. I knew because it was what I call a slashy moment.

Ditto Joan Brady's Theory of War. There I knew it was by a woman and cackled with Am-I-Surprised glee when, hah, in the final chapter, she revealed herself with a supremely slashy moment.

Ang Lee can't be slashy because he's a man. And Jake Gyllenhaal and Heath Ledger can't be slashy because they're men and straight to boot. Ultimately, the slash lives in our wimmin's brains. As I always say in my userinfo: we swim in the interstices. :-)

Comments

[birdgerhl.livejournal.com]

One of these days, I will compile a list of quotations, juxtaposing slashy moments with gay moments.

*waits (im)patiently*

b.x :D

[azewewish.livejournal.com]

Then how do you explain that the screenplay was partially written by a woman?

[childeproof.livejournal.com]

It hasn't arrived in this backward wee place yet.

*taps foot*

[http://users.livejournal.com/nixxie_/]

Love this! Beautiful insight and So true *nods*

[ios-pillow-book.livejournal.com]

I have a few ideas why women go for this; I myself include the following reasons: wish to imagine a relationship between equals in a patriarchal world full of gender inequality where straight relationships in fiction and film are 99 per cent of the time portrayed with stupid female characters; the buzz of transgression; subverting the male-male world, gaining access to all-male homosociality by exposing the homoerotica underneath it all (being able to lust over Blackhawk Down!); some as-yet undiscovered and unexplained slash-gene,

A-B-S-O-L-U-T-E-L-Y. Yes.

Not to forget the delightful visuals slash evokes in a woman's brain or in other words: two hot cocks men are always hotter than just one. ;-)

[triestine.livejournal.com]

Here via Isiscolo; great post, although I must say that there are deliciously slashy moments in Hermann Hesse's Narziss und Goldmund, for example, and he was a man.

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

hmm...no idea whether BBM is gay or slashy since i haven't seen it *g* but here's a link to an interesting discussion on what i'd consider the slashy aspects of BBM...

as for the differnce...yes, i wholeheartedly agree...i can't quite define it, but i know it when i see it :-)

[alchemia.livejournal.com]

and sure enough, it was a woman. I knew because it was what I call a slashy moment..... Ang Lee can't be slashy because he's a man... Ultimately, the slash lives in our wimmin's brains. As I always say in my userinfo: we swim in the interstices. :-)

So the quarter of my flist that writes slash, and reads slash, but just happens to be male aren't slashers? I doubt that. If they read and write like slashers, they're slashers; If they identify as slashers, they're slashers.

We can say, most slash is written byand read by women- and so assuming that an author is a woman will have you be right most of the time, but thats just luck of the draw here. I've seen authors that I either know in person or know consistantly identify as one gender or another mistaken for the opposite by readers. I've seen people convinced without a doubt that i'm one or the other based on how I write.

Gender and sex are far too complex to say something is tell-tale always a girl thing or a boy thing.

I do agree withyou however about the BBM story being slashy. It was my first impression of it. As a matter of fact, I found the story disappointing for this reason- i felt it was given higher marks by people I talk to because it was slashy rather than because of its quality.

[beck-liz.livejournal.com]

*snerk* OK, I just went and looked up Across the Nightingale Floor (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1573223328/qid=1136941489/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-9670114-1486544?s=books&v=glance&n=283155), and there's one very much thumbs down review by "Y" who ends by saying, "Put briefly, it's a chick's book. Guys stay away at all costs." OK, then. I was highly amused.

[psycho-tabby.livejournal.com]

Nice theory, and I can definatly see what you mean about knowing the sex of a book author based on the slashy moments in their books, but what about the guys who write slashy fanfiction? There isn't many, but copperbadge, for example is a guy, I dunno if he is straight or not, and some of his fics have both slash and het, but he still writes what I would consider very slashy, lovey-dovey scenes.

[franzeska]

I often think that "slashy" tension is more akin to Renaissance male friendship than to anything contemporary and actually gay.

[thirteen-ravens.livejournal.com]

"Ang Lee can't be slashy because he's a man. And Jake Gyllenhaal and Heath Ledger can't be slashy because they're men and straight to boot. Ultimately, the slash lives in our wimmin's brains. As I always say in my userinfo: we swim in the interstices."

Chapter 20 of "Women in Love" by D.H.Lawrence.

http://www.bibliomania.com/0/0/32/70/19644/1/frameset.html

I am slightly confused by your theory, so I appeal to you to please read this chapter and explain to me why it can't be called slash.

:o)

[thirteen-ravens.livejournal.com]

With reference to the link I just gave you - click the "page" link on the bottom right to turn the pages - the slashy bits are on the later pages, you see. ;o)

Here via Metafandom

[opengoal.livejournal.com]

I don't really agree that what men write/produce can't be slash. The film Lan Yu directed by gay filmmaker Stanley Kwan is totally slash. (See review at Boys on Boys on Film.) The gay baseball novel The Dreyfus Affair feels totally like sports slash too.

I agree that slash is born out of the unattainability of equality between the sexes in real life but I don't think slash is necessarily between equals. In fact, lots don't. Just look at the non-con or chan fics in HP and the terribly unbalanced relationship between Clark and Lex in many SV fics.

BBM may be lacking in gratitious sex scenes. But so are many PG- or R-rated fics.

[unnua.livejournal.com]

This is totally compatible with lobelia321's premise, which is that some women but not all women are slashers, and no men are. By this premise, the woman who wrote the screenplay just wasn't a slasher.

[unnua.livejournal.com]

I agree. Slash cannot be the exclusive domain of women. Nor can any psychological trait. I have no problem with it being more associated with women than with men, however, and I do not think it is "just the luck of the draw" that the majority of slashers are women. Some of the psychological qualities which are statistically associated with one gender much more than the other gender may be associated with that gender because of cultural forces, or because of biological forces, or (usually) a complexly tangled combination of both, but never is the association 100% to one gender and 0% to the other. Men are more rarely slashers, but there definitely are male slashers.

[alchemia.livejournal.com]

what I meant is that its a good bet a writer of slsh is a woman becuase most are women, but it's like guessing that a person who likes to wear a skirt, stays at home with the kids, or who lists 'secretary' as their occupation is a woman. That's just making cultural, gender based assumptions without knowing anything about the individual or allowing for exceptions.

I don't argue the statistics that slash is mostly written and read by women, and I agree there are many many factors at working creating the demographic (culture, biology, etc.). I disagree that ONLY women can slash, and that a person can tell a stranger's gender/identity based on only one aspect of their writing (how they write a m/m scene). We seem to agree on that.

[alchemia.livejournal.com]

hypothetically- what if we went and asked that writer if they were familiar with slash and they reponded that they LOVE slash, that they felt BBM was slashy and not just that but they read/write fanfiction slash on the internet too. I think that makes them a slasher since they identify as one. Some people might not think its "good slash" but thats subjective and we're all going to have different opinions about what stories are "good" examples of different genres.

PS I have no idea how the movie comes off slash wise- I've only read the story, and based on that, have no interest in the film.

[taineyah.livejournal.com]

Ummm... slash is not the sole domain of women. I've read many, many very good SLASH fics by MEN.

I am physically female, but am internally gender neutral. Does this mean that I am incapable of writing slash because I don't identify as female?

Because I write slash. I am a slasher. S-L-A-S-H-E-R.

I've read more books than anyone I know IRL, written by more authors, and, to this day, I cannot identify by writing style or by relations between characters whether the author is male or female.

Experts can usually tell, but that is normally by being able to identify a single author by writing style and conventions. Not by being able to say "boy or girl."

We are not experts, so we cannot make such generalisations.

[opengoal.livejournal.com]

Yes, and the argument seems to imply that you can tell a piece of writing is slash, not gay, because of certain moments (or flaws) that are unrealistic or rely too much on macho stereotypes.

I don't really think that men are not able to produce m/m works that are both emotionally charged and hot. Many chick flicks are directed by men so really they can do emotional stuffs. And (at least the) gay directors can do really hot m/m stuffs. And they can do closet or latent bisexuals/gays too. How different is Queer as Folk (US) from the agenda fics?

[msilverstar]

I think you're painting too broadly. You are one strain of slasher, but there are others, and you're not acknowledging that very clearly. I think you should name yours, so it's clear that you're not trying to say everyone is, or should be like you. I've heard other people upset that your analysis sounds like it's trying to be comprehensive.

As you know, I am not like you -- for me, it's not about the gay love, cos femme and het push the same happy buttons. I believe straight guys can be friends without sex involved, and that's my default assumption unless they indicate otherwise. I'll happily read and write fanfic about Big Gay Love, but I separate that very clearly from canon and life, and I'm happy with that. I dunno what to call myself, something on the order of "Extended Slashing"...?

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

I've been planning this for years.... Any suggestions, by the way? My list included Joseph Roth's Human Stain, Joan Brady's Art of War, Ursula Le Guin (practically everything), Lian Hearn, Alan Hollinghurst but not the Swimming Pool Library, that Belgian one (is it The Folding Star?), um, and some others wot escape me now.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Heh.

Either: my theory falls down completely and hasn't got a ball left to stand on.

Or: Film is more multi-authored than fic. One person writes a fic, at most two (let's leave rpg out here!!), but a film has the input of dozens, from scriptwriters to producers and directors. Commercial film making is not necessarily conducive to the release of secretly-harboured fantasies.

Or (third option): Not all women are slashers at heart (bizarre as that thought may strike you -- it certainly strikes me as bizarre but reality is weird like that; I've come across women who are not at all interested in the man-on-man action; admittedly, these women are far and few between... *g*).

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Indeed! And also see my further ruminations upon this comment.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Aha! So why are you not interested in the film? Because you did not like the story? (If so, why not?) Or because you did like the story and are afraid the film will make a hash of it?