slashy moments

[lobelia321]

kyuuketsukirui asked me what I meant when I wrote Annie Proulx's short story is the origfic of someone who is a slasher at heart. The film is made by a man. The story is slashy. The film is not.. This is what I replied:

Ah, I'm so glad you asked this! But kind of daunted as well because I have a whole theory and philosophy about this!

In sum, my notion is this: there is a thing called slashiness and it goes beyond fandoms; it's a women's thing and it involves loving the idea of man-on-man action. I have a few ideas why women go for this; I myself include the following reasons: wish to imagine a relationship between equals in a patriarchal world full of gender inequality where straight relationships in fiction and film are 99 per cent of the time portrayed with stupid female characters; the buzz of transgression; subverting the male-male world, gaining access to all-male homosociality by exposing the homoerotica underneath it all (being able to lust over Blackhawk Down!); some as-yet undiscovered and unexplained slash-gene, *g*. Slashy is not the same as gay.

I've become quite good at spotting slashy moments in literature. One of these days, I will compile a list of quotations, juxtaposing slashy moments with gay moments. Men write about man-on-man in a different way from women, this includes both gay men and straight men. Annie Proulx is totally slashy: she gets off on the men together and she loves the romance and she imagines the men as totally manly (slashers love manly men and suppressed emotions). When I read Lian Hearn's Across the Nightingale Floor, I thought I was reading a book by a man (I confused Lian with Liam). Then I got to the boy-on-boy action at the end (totally gratuitous!) and thought, hm, so I googled Lian Hearn and sure enough, it was a woman. I knew because it was what I call a slashy moment.

Ditto Joan Brady's Theory of War. There I knew it was by a woman and cackled with Am-I-Surprised glee when, hah, in the final chapter, she revealed herself with a supremely slashy moment.

Ang Lee can't be slashy because he's a man. And Jake Gyllenhaal and Heath Ledger can't be slashy because they're men and straight to boot. Ultimately, the slash lives in our wimmin's brains. As I always say in my userinfo: we swim in the interstices. :-)

Comments

[birdgerhl.livejournal.com]

One of these days, I will compile a list of quotations, juxtaposing slashy moments with gay moments.

*waits (im)patiently*

b.x :D

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

I've been planning this for years.... Any suggestions, by the way? My list included Joseph Roth's Human Stain, Joan Brady's Art of War, Ursula Le Guin (practically everything), Lian Hearn, Alan Hollinghurst but not the Swimming Pool Library, that Belgian one (is it The Folding Star?), um, and some others wot escape me now.

[azewewish.livejournal.com]

Then how do you explain that the screenplay was partially written by a woman?

[unnua.livejournal.com]

This is totally compatible with lobelia321's premise, which is that some women but not all women are slashers, and no men are. By this premise, the woman who wrote the screenplay just wasn't a slasher.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Heh.

Either: my theory falls down completely and hasn't got a ball left to stand on.

Or: Film is more multi-authored than fic. One person writes a fic, at most two (let's leave rpg out here!!), but a film has the input of dozens, from scriptwriters to producers and directors. Commercial film making is not necessarily conducive to the release of secretly-harboured fantasies.

Or (third option): Not all women are slashers at heart (bizarre as that thought may strike you -- it certainly strikes me as bizarre but reality is weird like that; I've come across women who are not at all interested in the man-on-man action; admittedly, these women are far and few between... *g*).

[childeproof.livejournal.com]

It hasn't arrived in this backward wee place yet.

*taps foot*

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Why are you in a backward wee place? Why are you not in LONDON? Why have we never met?

Also, if backward wee place is in Ireland: has Breakfast on Pluto arrived there yet?? Because that's even better than Brokeback Mountain! See my long post on it (I saw it last night and it's half set in Ireland, in the 1970s).

[http://users.livejournal.com/nixxie_/]

Love this! Beautiful insight and So true *nods*

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Hey, Nixxie!! Long time no see! So glad you're still around! *glomps you*

[ios-pillow-book.livejournal.com]

I have a few ideas why women go for this; I myself include the following reasons: wish to imagine a relationship between equals in a patriarchal world full of gender inequality where straight relationships in fiction and film are 99 per cent of the time portrayed with stupid female characters; the buzz of transgression; subverting the male-male world, gaining access to all-male homosociality by exposing the homoerotica underneath it all (being able to lust over Blackhawk Down!); some as-yet undiscovered and unexplained slash-gene,

A-B-S-O-L-U-T-E-L-Y. Yes.

Not to forget the delightful visuals slash evokes in a woman's brain or in other words: two hot cocks men are always hotter than just one. ;-)

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

the delightful visuals slash evokes in a woman's brain or in other words: two hot cocks men are always hotter than just one.

I thought of including this point! Except it doesn't hold true for all slashers. It doesn't explain, for example, the lesbian slasher who is not at all interested in men in real life.

Although I have to say, as far as I'm concerned? The above applies to me 150 per cent. Hah!

[triestine.livejournal.com]

Here via Isiscolo; great post, although I must say that there are deliciously slashy moments in Hermann Hesse's Narziss und Goldmund, for example, and he was a man.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Narziss und Goldmund! Now it's years since I read it so can you remind me??? A little quote (can be in German!). I might want to include this in my long-planned post, comparing man-on-man lust written by men vs by women.

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

hmm...no idea whether BBM is gay or slashy since i haven't seen it *g* but here's a link to an interesting discussion on what i'd consider the slashy aspects of BBM...

as for the differnce...yes, i wholeheartedly agree...i can't quite define it, but i know it when i see it :-)

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Where is the link?

Hope you're doing okay, honey!!!!!

[alchemia.livejournal.com]

and sure enough, it was a woman. I knew because it was what I call a slashy moment..... Ang Lee can't be slashy because he's a man... Ultimately, the slash lives in our wimmin's brains. As I always say in my userinfo: we swim in the interstices. :-)

So the quarter of my flist that writes slash, and reads slash, but just happens to be male aren't slashers? I doubt that. If they read and write like slashers, they're slashers; If they identify as slashers, they're slashers.

We can say, most slash is written byand read by women- and so assuming that an author is a woman will have you be right most of the time, but thats just luck of the draw here. I've seen authors that I either know in person or know consistantly identify as one gender or another mistaken for the opposite by readers. I've seen people convinced without a doubt that i'm one or the other based on how I write.

Gender and sex are far too complex to say something is tell-tale always a girl thing or a boy thing.

I do agree withyou however about the BBM story being slashy. It was my first impression of it. As a matter of fact, I found the story disappointing for this reason- i felt it was given higher marks by people I talk to because it was slashy rather than because of its quality.

[unnua.livejournal.com]

I agree. Slash cannot be the exclusive domain of women. Nor can any psychological trait. I have no problem with it being more associated with women than with men, however, and I do not think it is "just the luck of the draw" that the majority of slashers are women. Some of the psychological qualities which are statistically associated with one gender much more than the other gender may be associated with that gender because of cultural forces, or because of biological forces, or (usually) a complexly tangled combination of both, but never is the association 100% to one gender and 0% to the other. Men are more rarely slashers, but there definitely are male slashers.

[beck-liz.livejournal.com]

*snerk* OK, I just went and looked up Across the Nightingale Floor (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1573223328/qid=1136941489/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-9670114-1486544?s=books&v=glance&n=283155), and there's one very much thumbs down review by "Y" who ends by saying, "Put briefly, it's a chick's book. Guys stay away at all costs." OK, then. I was highly amused.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

*cackles*

Point proven!

Also, everyone's going round saying that Brokeback Mountain is a chick flick. Even the people, both guys and women, who don't know about slash have this inkling that women get off on the horny man-on-man shmoop weepie!

[psycho-tabby.livejournal.com]

Nice theory, and I can definatly see what you mean about knowing the sex of a book author based on the slashy moments in their books, but what about the guys who write slashy fanfiction? There isn't many, but copperbadge, for example is a guy, I dunno if he is straight or not, and some of his fics have both slash and het, but he still writes what I would consider very slashy, lovey-dovey scenes.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Yes, and here I have to repeat what I said above: I manage to edit the men out of my LJ slash world completely. Whenever a man crosses my path in LJ land, I do a double-take and then run a mile. And the statistics, to me, prove that slash is overwhelmingly a chick thing. The guys are a total exception. And who knows, maybe the men who love slash love it for different reasons and in a different way from the women who love slash, and maybe one could almost need to invent a new word for that different thing and it just both happens to be called slash? I reserve the word slash for the woman variety only.

And I said to someone else, that it would be interesting to read two anonymous paragraphs (or fics), one by a man, one by a woman, both about the man-on-man love. Who knows, perhaps I wouldn't be able to pick who's who and my theory would fall down around my ears in tatters?

Though, knowing me, I doubt this would make me abandon it. *g*

[franzeska]

I often think that "slashy" tension is more akin to Renaissance male friendship than to anything contemporary and actually gay.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Oh, interesting! Yes, absolutely not gay. And definitely not camp!

[thirteen-ravens.livejournal.com]

"Ang Lee can't be slashy because he's a man. And Jake Gyllenhaal and Heath Ledger can't be slashy because they're men and straight to boot. Ultimately, the slash lives in our wimmin's brains. As I always say in my userinfo: we swim in the interstices."

Chapter 20 of "Women in Love" by D.H.Lawrence.

http://www.bibliomania.com/0/0/32/70/19644/1/frameset.html

I am slightly confused by your theory, so I appeal to you to please read this chapter and explain to me why it can't be called slash.

:o)

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Oh, this looks like a fun experiment and an intriguing appeal to me! But can I leave it to another day? I've got some coconut dessert things in the oven and three screeching boys downstairs and am, in fact, sitting here in my apron so can I read this at leisure and get back to you?

It's a while since I read this book (or did I read it? I read quite a few Lawrence in my youth but he got on my nerves precisely because he's such a convoluted three-balled macho!).

[thirteen-ravens.livejournal.com]

With reference to the link I just gave you - click the "page" link on the bottom right to turn the pages - the slashy bits are on the later pages, you see. ;o)

Here via Metafandom

[opengoal.livejournal.com]

I don't really agree that what men write/produce can't be slash. The film Lan Yu directed by gay filmmaker Stanley Kwan is totally slash. (See review at Boys on Boys on Film.) The gay baseball novel The Dreyfus Affair feels totally like sports slash too.

I agree that slash is born out of the unattainability of equality between the sexes in real life but I don't think slash is necessarily between equals. In fact, lots don't. Just look at the non-con or chan fics in HP and the terribly unbalanced relationship between Clark and Lex in many SV fics.

BBM may be lacking in gratitious sex scenes. But so are many PG- or R-rated fics.

Re: Here via Metafandom

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

I have not seen these films, alas, so cannot comment. What, in your view then, is slashy about these films?

I agree that slash is born out of the unattainability of equality between the sexes in real life but I don't think slash is necessarily between equals.
I like this formulation a lot. And yes, many fics build inequality in where it needn't be. But that's the thing, I think: the inequality of non-con etcetera in slash is not premised upon gender. In so much het, the inequality is automatically there but in slash it is generated by something else. And the reason, I at any rate, enjoy reading fics of this type of inequality is that I like the inequality erupting into the gender equality and having to be justified by other means. So the fic writer has to convince me that the inequality arises from something, some personality difference. The het fic writer or film maker mostly doesn't bother convincing me; it is just assumed.

[taineyah.livejournal.com]

Ummm... slash is not the sole domain of women. I've read many, many very good SLASH fics by MEN.

I am physically female, but am internally gender neutral. Does this mean that I am incapable of writing slash because I don't identify as female?

Because I write slash. I am a slasher. S-L-A-S-H-E-R.

I've read more books than anyone I know IRL, written by more authors, and, to this day, I cannot identify by writing style or by relations between characters whether the author is male or female.

Experts can usually tell, but that is normally by being able to identify a single author by writing style and conventions. Not by being able to say "boy or girl."

We are not experts, so we cannot make such generalisations.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

slash is not the sole domain of women. I've read many, many very good SLASH fics by MEN.

I have not.

And I will repeat what I've said to several people above: there are men who like slash. They are statistically in the extreme minority. Statistically, slash is a woman thing. I do not know if the men like the slash for the same reasons the women like the slash. I use the word 'slash' exclusively to describe that quality that women like about the man-on-man lust. Maybe there could be another word to describe the male variety but that is how I see slash.

We are not experts,
If you have read so many books, how are you not an expert?

I can tell whether a writer is boy or girl. Well, it is difficult to put this to the test as books come with their writers printed on the cover so it's not like fic where you can sometimes not tell by the username. So unless it's an initial (J.K.Rowling) or something indeterminate (Lian Hearn), we would always know beforehand, I guess.

[msilverstar]

I think you're painting too broadly. You are one strain of slasher, but there are others, and you're not acknowledging that very clearly. I think you should name yours, so it's clear that you're not trying to say everyone is, or should be like you. I've heard other people upset that your analysis sounds like it's trying to be comprehensive.

As you know, I am not like you -- for me, it's not about the gay love, cos femme and het push the same happy buttons. I believe straight guys can be friends without sex involved, and that's my default assumption unless they indicate otherwise. I'll happily read and write fanfic about Big Gay Love, but I separate that very clearly from canon and life, and I'm happy with that. I dunno what to call myself, something on the order of "Extended Slashing"...?

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

You are one strain of slasher, but there are others
But what are the other strains of slasher? And how are they different from what you describe as 'my' strain? I didn't know I had a strain: I discovered this thing as a newbie and just went with it! It was out there before me and it will be out there after me.

I've heard other people upset that your analysis sounds like it's trying to be comprehensive.
Alas, my analysis is comprehensive. This is actually a bedrock generalisation theory that I cleave to. I believe this deep down.

it's not about the gay love, cos femme and het push the same happy buttons.
For me, also, it is not about the gay love because gay love is not slashy love. And my het buttons can be pushed very happily but not as often, I have to say, as my slashy buttons because, as I've said above somewhere, most het fic or films have an inequality built in that I use slash to escape from. I get so tired of the way women behave in het representations of us. The het love I like is Bollywood (and there it is screened by cultural difference -- there is no doubt some inequality and macho tedium there that I can simply not smell out as easily -- and an over-the-topness that almost spoofs itself) and (most recently) Ursula Le Guin's Tombs of Atuan. But the scene where Arha spies on Sparrowhawk in the tombs is so very, very slashy (even though it involves a man and a woman)!

I separate that very clearly from canon and life
I separate slash from canon, too! And from life!

I am puzzled why people would be upset, as you say. Why are they upset? Gads, I've sort of outed myself now, haven't I? I thought everybody thought like me! (No wonder that Draco is my number one Mary Sue...)

[telesilla.livejournal.com]

In my eleven years in slash fandom I've been involved in close to a dozen different fandoms and read in even more. I've known straight slashers of both genders, bi slashers of both genders and queer slashers of both genders.

The one thing they had in common is that they all wrote slash. You don't need a cunt to write slash, all you need is the ability to tell a story about a homosexual relationship between two or more media characters, because that's what slash is. Traditionally slash has been limited to fic about character who were canonically straight, because back when the genre started that's all there were. These days, with gay characters such as the boys from QaF and the girls from The L Word, the definition of slash has been expanded to include canonically gay characters.

I've seen slash that you can't tell from professional gay romances -- such as Gaywyck -- and slash that you can't tell from professional gay porn -- such as Mr. Benson. The gender of the writer has rarely had anything to do with it.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

You don't need a cunt to write slash

*laughs*

It's an intriguing point. But whenever I've written femslash, it's been quite a different experience from writing mascslash. I find it to be quite different writing about experiences and bodily detail that I actually know. I simply don't know what it actually feels like from the inside to have a penis but I do know what it feels like to have a cunt!

Hooray for cunts!

[zillah975]

Wait, what?

I'm confused. I haven't read every comment (I am, strange as it may seem to some, trying to get ready for church while I ponder all this), but I can't figure out what your definition of slash is that it would preclude men being able to write it.

Unless, that is, part of the definition includes "and it's written by a woman", in which case, well, okay, but that seems like a weird and sexist (genderist?) thing to include in a defintion unless you also include some reason for it. And possibly then, I guess, depending on the reason.

Why can't men write slash? Or is it just that you haven't yet come across what you'd call a slashy moment that was, to your knowledge, written by a man? Which isn't a good reason to suppose men can't write slash, 'specially since in one of the comments I did read you mentioned that if you encounter a man on LJ you flee. If LJ is where most of your slash experience comes from, then cutting men out of your experience doesn't lend itself to being able to determine what they can or can't write.

[esorlehcar.livejournal.com]

Color me confused at well. It seems the point here is "Men can't write slash, because I define slash as something written by women." That isn't a problem, exactly - people can redefine terms any way they want - but it makes discussion on the subject rather difficult, especially when the conversation boils down to "slash can't be written by men because I say so."

If I defined vegetarian as "people who don't eat meat who are also democrats" because the great majority of vegetarians I know are liberal, it wouldn't change the definition of the term, and people would be understandably rather confused when I tried to take part in discussions using my definition instead of the actual one. And my refusing to call certain people vegetarians because they didn't fit my own invented definition wouldn't make them any less vegetarian.