nuts and bolts writing of longfic
Feb. 3rd, 2006 03:11 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
lobelia321So some of you so kindly wrote really helpful things re writing the looong fic. Now:
if you write longfic, do you tend to write it in longhand first?
And once on your computer, do you store it all on the same document, or on different ones? And how do you keep track of them all, especially of the different versions and drafts? Do you print them out?
Do you write out the whole thing in linear chronology, and later shuffle it round? Or do you start out with a flashback-whatever structure?
If you have several povs (and I find this is more of an issue for me with longfic; shortfic survives very well on one pov only but in longfic I have the urge to delve into more people's minds), how do you manage those? Do you write character A's pov first, and then character B, and so forth? Or do you shuttle back and forth? And do you organise the scenes into povs at the end, or as you go? Do you ever write the same scene from different povs to see how it will work better, and how do you decide which one works the better?
Do you work in chapters? Or sections? I find that I tend to write in chunks; so when I'm finished with one 'session', that will be one document and a sort of self-contained 'chapter' kind of thing. On the other hand, I have not yet (to use![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
helenish's term, done all the 'sticking' together of the different chunks. And sometimes a scene might need to be longer than one chunk so after the end of my session, that scene just gets abandoned half-finished. What do you do about that?
Do you try to remember everything and get everything right as you write? Or do you write blahblah or somesuch alert and go back to fix plot holes when you've written the whole thing up?
At what point do you start to involve betas, if at all? And do you find involving betas early rather than late (i.e. when the whole thing is still an unstuck-together monster) helpful or a hindrance?
What do you do when you find that the story has run away into one direction, and then you check bits that you wrote earlier (which by now is possibly 15 months earlier...!) and you realise that the characters and the plot were quite different back then. Especially the characters because plot is easier to fix, I find, but characters...! How do you keep track of what characters are like?
Do you make up whole backstories for everybody, in order to make sense of how they behave now (at the time of your story), and how do you stop yourself from turning these backstories into stories in their own right that threaten to take over and insinuate themselves into your already massively-long fic? Do you just allow them to do that, or do you ruthlessly trim?
What do you do about exposition? Short fics, I find, can survive very well on hint and suggestion and evocation but longfic, for some reason, needs (for me, anyway) more spelling out of the way things stand.
How do you do the planting-clues-in-chapter-one thing, and then the resolving-the-clue-in-chapter-538 and not the forgetting-that-I-had-planted-this-clue?
Do you write shorter fics alongside the longfic? Or write two or more fic in parallel? I am finding that once in longfic mode, I can't do anything else. I am a fic monogame. I can't dance at two weddings at once, as they say in Germany. Sometimes I would like to because I think it would be liberating and get me some much-needed interim feedback but I just can't get myself interested in writing anything but the longfic I am obsessively inhabiting. Is that bad?
How do you prevent yourself from becoming overwhelmed by the sheer longness of it?
Do people get sick of writers moaning about their longfics and think, oh just get on with it and post already? Or is that me feeling diffident and paranoid?
Those of you (and may you be revered forever) who have indeed managed to finish and post a longfic (not I, alas, I have never finished a really long thing): did you post the longfic at the very end in one big splodge? Or did you post it as a WIP, in chapters or chunks? Did you upload it to your website and link to it from LJ? Or did you post it straight to LJ, in a zillion posts, and how long did it take you to format all that?? And how did you collect your feedback? Chapter by chapter, or all at the end? And if you uploaded to your website, did you plonk it all onto one massive page or separate it out into chapters with a 'next' link at the bottom? And did the knowledge of how you would format and upload the fic influence the way you wrote it, i.e. did you write in chapter-chunks of approximate LJ-post-length? Or did you have some really short chapters and some long tapeworms?
And did people even bother reading? Or was it all too loooong for them?
if you write longfic, do you tend to write it in longhand first?
And once on your computer, do you store it all on the same document, or on different ones? And how do you keep track of them all, especially of the different versions and drafts? Do you print them out?
Do you write out the whole thing in linear chronology, and later shuffle it round? Or do you start out with a flashback-whatever structure?
If you have several povs (and I find this is more of an issue for me with longfic; shortfic survives very well on one pov only but in longfic I have the urge to delve into more people's minds), how do you manage those? Do you write character A's pov first, and then character B, and so forth? Or do you shuttle back and forth? And do you organise the scenes into povs at the end, or as you go? Do you ever write the same scene from different povs to see how it will work better, and how do you decide which one works the better?
Do you work in chapters? Or sections? I find that I tend to write in chunks; so when I'm finished with one 'session', that will be one document and a sort of self-contained 'chapter' kind of thing. On the other hand, I have not yet (to use
helenish's term, done all the 'sticking' together of the different chunks. And sometimes a scene might need to be longer than one chunk so after the end of my session, that scene just gets abandoned half-finished. What do you do about that? Do you try to remember everything and get everything right as you write? Or do you write blahblah or somesuch alert and go back to fix plot holes when you've written the whole thing up?
At what point do you start to involve betas, if at all? And do you find involving betas early rather than late (i.e. when the whole thing is still an unstuck-together monster) helpful or a hindrance?
What do you do when you find that the story has run away into one direction, and then you check bits that you wrote earlier (which by now is possibly 15 months earlier...!) and you realise that the characters and the plot were quite different back then. Especially the characters because plot is easier to fix, I find, but characters...! How do you keep track of what characters are like?
Do you make up whole backstories for everybody, in order to make sense of how they behave now (at the time of your story), and how do you stop yourself from turning these backstories into stories in their own right that threaten to take over and insinuate themselves into your already massively-long fic? Do you just allow them to do that, or do you ruthlessly trim?
What do you do about exposition? Short fics, I find, can survive very well on hint and suggestion and evocation but longfic, for some reason, needs (for me, anyway) more spelling out of the way things stand.
How do you do the planting-clues-in-chapter-one thing, and then the resolving-the-clue-in-chapter-538 and not the forgetting-that-I-had-planted-this-clue?
Do you write shorter fics alongside the longfic? Or write two or more fic in parallel? I am finding that once in longfic mode, I can't do anything else. I am a fic monogame. I can't dance at two weddings at once, as they say in Germany. Sometimes I would like to because I think it would be liberating and get me some much-needed interim feedback but I just can't get myself interested in writing anything but the longfic I am obsessively inhabiting. Is that bad?
How do you prevent yourself from becoming overwhelmed by the sheer longness of it?
Do people get sick of writers moaning about their longfics and think, oh just get on with it and post already? Or is that me feeling diffident and paranoid?
Those of you (and may you be revered forever) who have indeed managed to finish and post a longfic (not I, alas, I have never finished a really long thing): did you post the longfic at the very end in one big splodge? Or did you post it as a WIP, in chapters or chunks? Did you upload it to your website and link to it from LJ? Or did you post it straight to LJ, in a zillion posts, and how long did it take you to format all that?? And how did you collect your feedback? Chapter by chapter, or all at the end? And if you uploaded to your website, did you plonk it all onto one massive page or separate it out into chapters with a 'next' link at the bottom? And did the knowledge of how you would format and upload the fic influence the way you wrote it, i.e. did you write in chapter-chunks of approximate LJ-post-length? Or did you have some really short chapters and some long tapeworms?
And did people even bother reading? Or was it all too loooong for them?
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A long response!
Date: 2006-02-03 07:31 pm (UTC)I'm more likely to write shorter things by hand first, but occasionally I'll write a section of longfic in longhand if I'm away from keyboard.
I keep chapters in separate files, and once the first draft is done I add that version to a 'whole thing' file, handy for checking back on facts, names, word (ab)use. I do tend to have continuity issues, and problems with consistency: I try to spot them as I go (and I skim through the whole thing every week or so, just trying to refresh my memory) but I don't expect to catch everything until I'm revising.
I tend to draft start to finish first, then save the 'whole thing' file labelled as 'V1', and revise at chapter level. Sometimes that's where foreshadowing gets done! e.g. I go back and put it in. Sometimes, I need to foreshadow to tell myself about the plot, so I'll put in a neat little image and hope to remember it later on.
I tend to have linear chronology, and some idea of structure in terms of which POV where, and what major event happens when: it's all pretty flexible though, and sometimes large chunks disappear during revision.
(POVs: I shuttle between them, and if I'm feeling smart there's Patterns to it.)
Backstory sometimes comes as I write :) other times, I find I have enough material for a shortfic so I write that.
How do you keep track of what characters are like?
I'm not sure I do! But when (if) I do, it's because they have come alive for me: that lovely tipping-point where, for example, you're writing a scene with several characters, and you have a brilliant line for character A -- except it's so much more right for character B. Once I get to that stage they don't tend to change too much -- not in the essentials, anyway, though I may need to go back and deepen the characterisation in early chapters.
Never mind not being interested in writing anything else: I don't tend to have time or energy! (Though that said, co-author and I are collaborating on a second, PWP, effort, which is an excellent antidote to Weighty Origfic Themes.)
Beta? I involve a beta when I've finished a first draft, or if I'm stuck and need encouragement / suggestions. (Not applicable co-writing, we act as beta to one another.)
My main problem isn't the 'overwhelmed by longness' that you mention: it's that, near the end, a very strange attitude overtakes me: I'm still trying to work out exactly what it is, but it's like simultaneously loving and hating My Creation, and feeling as though it's something quite separate from me, and hating it for being separate, and being afraid for it, and disappointed by the fact it isn't as good as I could've made it, and guilty for feeling disappointed. If you can help with this one I shall be eternally grateful!
Re posting: if writing alone, I tend to finish the whole thing and then post chapter by chapter at regular intervals. Same posting pattern if co-writing, but we are generally only a couple of chapters ahead. Though for Nanowrimo thing, I posted as I wrote -- the only way to stop myself endlessly revising what I'd done, and keep going for the target.
Right, potatoes are boiling now and I fear I have entertained you enough! Happy to IM about this some time if you'd care to share experiences ...
Re: A long response!
Date: 2006-02-03 07:32 pm (UTC)Re: A long response!
Date: 2006-02-05 06:28 pm (UTC)I tend to draft start to finish first, then save the 'whole thing' file labelled as 'V1', and revise at chapter level. Sometimes that's where foreshadowing gets done! e.g. I go back and put it in.
Yes, that sounds sensible. I like that expression 'the foreshadowing', too!
I find I have enough material for a shortfic so I write that.
You mean, like a stand-alone spin-off?
it's because they have come alive for me: that lovely tipping-point
O god, I wish that tipping point comes soon! I tend to veer between the certainty of the characters in my head and the uncertainty whether this will work on the page.
an excellent antidote to Weighty Origfic Themes.
But my long weighty fic is not origfic but fanfic! Maybe I need to write origfic quickies as relief??
near the end, a very strange attitude overtakes me
I can't help with this one although I'd like to but I've never had this feeling, I've never been close to finishing in this way. I haven't got the experience of writing and finishing and posting longfic so this is maybe why my worry is greater because I can't fall back on the memory of 'well, I did it once'.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-02-03 07:32 pm (UTC)Longhand: never. I can't hold a pen for more than three or four minutes due to RSI, but more than that, I can handwrite at about 10 wpm and I can type at about 100 wpm, so I get insanely frustrated when I'm trying to write longhand.
I do everything in a single file. If I've got a really really huge story that's going to require major revision, I'll save each discrete draft, but generally I just do my revisions on top of the old writing. I don't have a printer, so I don't print anything :) I work in a basic text editor -- an old version of the free version of BBEdit, which is the best text editor ever -- but when I start to get up to the edit job on 90,000 words or more I'll write it in BBEdit, then toss it into Word to track changes and beta comments through revision. (Especially if I have footnotes, or popups, or inlines.)
Structure totally depends on the story. I won't start writing a draft until I know two things: how the characters change during the story, and what impression I want to leave the reader with. Once I've got that, I start writing. Sometimes I'll try out a few different structures, sometimes I'll move flashbacks around, etc, etc; sometimes I'll get partway into the story and realize it's in the wrong tense or the wrong viewpoint or started way too early or late in the action, and I'll toss it out and start over again. A lot of it is instinct and practice, and learning to trust in your concept of where the story's going and your ability to get the story there.
If I'm using multiple POVs (which I generally only do for action-adventure novella+ length; I tend to like third-person limited more for everything else, including romance), I absolutely won't switch more often than once a scene, and I keep going and write each scene in order. Sometimes it takes me a little bit to work up the "voice" of the new viewpoint character, but again, I can't really write out of order, so I've learned to cope with it. As for picking who's going to be the vp character for a specific scene ... it depends, but my basic rule of thumb is: Which one of them is *most* going to advance the purpose of the story here? For instance, if the emotional impact of the story needs the audience to sympathize more with character A, I'm more likely to write The Grand Fight from A's viewpoint, while if the audience is supposed to recognize that B is *really* misunderstanding things, I might write it from B's. I tend to write in a very tight vp, where people are inside their own heads for their scenes and have to put together the other's reactions based on actions or reactions or dialog, but I'll also make my characters a little bit more perceptive than they otherwise might be, so they can offer that kind of perspective on the other person.
I don't tend to use "chapters", per se -- I just do separations between individual scenes -- but once I get up over about 50,000 words, though, I'll usually go through and find logical thematic points to break into sections. I'm most fond of the three-act or five-act division. (If you're having trouble with story structure, hie thee over to Project Gutenberg and read Aristotle's "Poetics", which is pretty much the writer's bible when it comes to stuff like that.) But I will encourage you to not be afraid of completely throwing out something you've written if it's totally not working. Well, don't delete it entirely -- put it somewhere else and salvage it later -- but don't ever feel like you're locked into a particular structure, chapter, scene, etc, just because you spent three hours on it! You'll find somewhere to use it later, and if your gut is telling you it isn't working, it probably isn't.
(I'll say that again, because a lot of writers never quite believe me: It is a good and noble thing to throw things out. I have probably written about 40% more than I have ever done anything with. Be brutal in culling; your writing will be better for it.)
(Continued in another comment, since I'm approaching comment limit, I'm sure...)
(no subject)
Date: 2006-02-03 08:03 pm (UTC)I bring people in early, even if it's just my girlfriend. I can't write in a vacuum; I need to know what kind of emotional impact my story's having on people, to be able to judge what needs to change, what needs to be expanded upon, and what needs to be cut. My best early-draft readers don't actually suggest any changes at all; all they do is tell me what it makes them *feel*, and I can make the changes myself based on what I'm aiming for. (Technical critique, like grammar, spelling, form, etc, is for later drafts.)
If your characters aren't changing by the end of the story, you started in the wrong place of the story :) Any story is, at heart, about how events change people. I think what you mean is what happens when your ultimate conceptualization of the character changes from when you start writing to when you finish writing, yeah? Second drafts. Lots of them. *g* (This is, honestly, why I can't write out-of-order. I need to follow the character's progression along with the reader.)
I usually wind up doing a lot more thinking about a character's backstory than ever makes it into the story, yeah. As for not letting "feature creep" in -- sometimes I let it in, as a B-plot; sometimes I just let it in as hints and allusions. Sometimes I hie off and write a spin-off or a side story. :) Again, it all depends on the story. There's a lot more leeway in a story that's going to be 120,000 words than one that's going to be 75,000 words.
For exposition ... I joke a lot that in every single one of my stories, one person should be nicknamed Captain Exposition, but it's *true*. The classic and time-honored trick is to make one person ignorant of the details the audience needs to know, and then have another character explain it to them. Or you can put it in narration. A lot of people want to get more detailed with exposition than is really necessary, and all at once -- don't be afraid to tease out your exposition, really. (In the Rodney story I'm working on now, the last important piece doesn't show up until about 10,000 words in. It's been alluded to, and it's been referenced, and it's been Very Firmly Not Talked About, but the reader doesn't know it until way in.) If you spin out your exposition, it feels less like an info dump. Be willing to let your reader wonder. :)
Continued again...
(no subject)
Date: 2006-02-03 08:22 pm (UTC)I usually have five or six stories in progress at a time, because I get bored easily. Some people work on one thing at a time exclusively. That's something I think you'll pretty much have to figure out for yourself :) To keep from getting overwhelmed, it's mainly a question of "set reasonable goals, work towards those goals, and don't get frustrated". I find that sharing with people helps here; it kind of tides me over for interim feedback.
I never, ever, ever post WIPs unless they're abandoned. I'm a WIP slut -- I'll show drafts to just about anyone I chat with -- but I will never post publicly until it's done, polished, and over. As a reader, I hate when I invest time and trouble into a WIP, get 50,000 words in, and realize it's not done -- I read so voraciously that the only way to keep enough space in my brain is to immerse myself in the story while I'm reading it, and then let it go when I'm done, so to stop and start in the middle drives me nuts. (I have to read novels in one sitting, too, unless I've read them before.) As an author, it cuts off a lot of your options -- because if you finish chapters 1-3 and post them, and then realize in chapter 7 that you have to go back and correct something, you are so screwed. Even if you plot and outline everything out to a T, there's always going to be *something* you need to correct.
As for posting, if something fits in the LJ post limit, I post to LJ and put it on my website. If it goes over the limit, I just post the link to LJ. Up to about 50,000 words I'll make it all one file on the site; if it's more than that, or if it has logical section divisions, I offer both a "whole story on one page for easy printing" and a "story by section for people who want to read in bits" version. Form follows function, for me, not vice versa.
And finally, in my experience: I get more feedback for shorter stories, yeah. But my website stats say that more people read the long ones, and I get more people telling me that the longer stories had more of an impact on them. And since that's what I'm aiming for, I'm usually happy. :) I write for me, in the end; I'm usually just happy if a few other people appreciate the effort.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-02-06 10:24 pm (UTC)I don't want to post this HP opus until it's finished, I am very nervous about it. Otoh, I started posting another fic as WIP and that was absolutely the right thing to do for that fic (for me). It has more of a WIP-like structure, and I already knew in my head what was going to happen, and the WIP structure spurred me on to write it. It's now on hold, alas, due to HP opus taking over my life, so that is too bad for the readers who've been left hanging but *sigh*.
Thanks also for the hints on posting, I like the 'all on one page for printing out' option: I print out everything so this is a great courtesy to people like me! Aha, interesting re website stats: I wonder if people feel intimidated by long fics and tend not to feedback. I know that often after a long fic I feel that I should leave very long and detailed fb but because I never have the time I end up leaving none or something months after the event! while it's easy to click and write 'great' for a drabble!
(no subject)
Date: 2006-02-06 10:20 pm (UTC)I like that strategy a lot for early betaing. I may ask my early readers to do only that: just tell me how they feel, never mind what needs changing or not.
If your characters aren't changing by the end of the story, you started in the wrong place of the story ,
Yes! :-)
Thanks also for the great hints on exposition. This is all so phenomenally helpful! What do you mean by A-plot and B-plot??
(no subject)
Date: 2006-02-06 10:29 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-02-06 10:42 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-02-03 08:05 pm (UTC)bbedit!! god, that brings back memories, teaching myself how to write HTML in bbedit! it was a nifty little thing!
b.x :)
(no subject)
Date: 2006-02-05 06:34 pm (UTC)I don't have a printer, so I don't print anything
Let me just take three months out to digest this one.
*boggles* I print out everything. Every fic I read that is longer than a drabble I print out and lug about with me and file in A4 ringbinders. Also, I have to print out my chunks of my own fic and revise on the page.
I went to the BBEdit site; this looks like an editor mostly for html? I've generally found that if I type up something in word and then save it as an html file that'll do the trick, and I can add fiddly bits like links to the next chapter per hand. But maybe it's all a lot more horrendous with longfic...??
how the characters change during the story, and what impression I want to leave the reader with
I like that.
learning to trust in your concept of where the story's going and your ability to get the story there.
Yes, it's that trust thing. I often falter. With shortfic I have the trust more because I've been there and done that but longfic? I have no clue. I may not be up to it!
my basic rule of thumb is: Which one of them is *most* going to advance the purpose of the story here?
I like that; it seems eminently sensible.
Must make dinner; will respond more later!
(no subject)
Date: 2006-02-06 10:18 pm (UTC)Ack, woman, I teach Aristotle! *is insanely excited that LJ peeps read the Poetics!* Yay, Aristotle. There's also the four large-scale part model which is how Hollywood movies work (although HW moguls will claim they use the 3-act model): set-up 1/4 of the time, complication 1/4, development 1/4, climax and optional epilogue 1/4. Not sure, though, how that might translate into text. Ack, I have never needed to apply this to my own writing! My own writing hasn't been long enough to merit acts or parts!
OK, brutal in culling. Will remember this at the end for revising.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-02-03 11:31 pm (UTC)Yes, although that started as a result of writing during lunch hours at work. I'd like to get in the habit of typing it straight into the WP- it would save so much time!
I use one document per chapter. I keep one file for drafts, and one file for chapters already posted. Sometimes, if I'm revising something a few times, I'll keep multiple copies in the draft file and give them "a," "b," and so on.
I start out linear, and work in the occasional flashback. It's pretty much a seat-of-the-pants operation. I just start writing and don't really think it through. Chances are, I've already played the scene, movie-style, in my head, over and over again.
I try to stick to only two pov's- maybe three at most- and maybe switch once during a chapter. So, I'll start with A for the first half, then switch to B for the second part. I used to mix them up a lot more, but my beta cracked down, because it was getting confusing!
One chapter at a time, all in order!
Pretty much. If there's some fact I want to check, but don't want to take the time right now, I'll leave myself a note in the text, and try to get it worked out before I send it to beta. Ocasionally, I've sent things to beta without having everything right, because I know it will take me days to find (like what kind of guns were on American tanks in WW2), so I'll just leave my notes in, so they know I'm still working on it.
I started using a beta right after completing the first chapter, because I felt horribly unsure of myself. It helped me so much, because I was getting some good feedback right away, and also kept me from continuing with some pretty awkward things, like constantly muddling the pov. They still get it one chapter at a time. I hope they live long enough!
(I think I'm running out of room- I'll start another comment)
(no subject)
Date: 2006-02-06 10:31 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-02-03 11:51 pm (UTC)OMG. I don't even want to think about this. I know my characters have evolved over time, but I hope they're still themselves. omg. *angsts*
I make up backstories for all of my main characters, and I pretty much let them take over. That's why my fic became so long and complicated. I now have this huge cast of characters to manage, and I try to work in the backstories a little bit at a time, so I don't veer off completely.
Hee. As little as possible? I try to make as much as I can happen with action and dialogue. I get nervous if I have more than a short paragraph of exposition anywhere.
If I drop a major clue, I try to make a note of it, so I don't forget about it later. I keep a few pages in the back of my notebook for things like chronology, the names of everyone's siblings, the itinerary, etc. That's where I'll put a reminder to myself to do something about that thing I mentioned two years ago in chapter 6.
Very seldom. Something really has to strike me and stick before I'll write it. That's why I've only written something like three shorter fics. The big one usually takes up most of my brain
along with all the Mary-Sue-ish stuff that will never see the light of day.I don't. I'm completely overwhelmed. I admit it. :-)
They probably do. I tend to sympathise, but it seems that most writers who post a lot of fic don't have these problems. I feel like I'm giving birth to an elephant!
As for how I post it: One chapter at a time, sometimes days, sometimes years apart. As I go, I put each chapter in my memories, and also make a link to the next one. That reminds me- I don't think I ever finished doing that! My chapters tend to be of varying lengths and I try not to be too anal about it. Some just need to be longer than others.
Very few people even read it. I don't even know why I'm doing it. If I posted something now, I don't even know if my few "regular" readers would come back. It would help to have an actual fandom, but I really don't care that much. I do it mostly for myself. The feedback is just gravy!
(no subject)
Date: 2006-02-06 10:34 pm (UTC)What I love about your working method is that it has so little method and that it just goes where it takes you. All those how-to rules and pernickety regulations: you just go with that flow, and that's somehow also something I want to preserve. Along with all the angsting, ack.
I don't. I'm completely overwhelmed.
*bursts out laughing* Oh, but it's so good that there's someone else who is! And that not everybody has the perfect answer and is busily typing away in a disciplined fashion!
sometimes years apart
Bwuahahah. Oh, this is so refreshing. And terrifying!!! Because so close to home!
(no subject)
Date: 2006-02-04 11:05 am (UTC)When it comes to the structure, it depends on the story in question: the longest things I've written are Victorian-style science fiction adventures - A Walk in the Karakorum has a straightforward linear narrative, written that way from start to finish; On Her Majesty's Martian Service has minor flashbacks incorporated in it, but is still rather linear (it was a NaNoWriMo entry); Bleed Into One (I've grown to hate the title and no one ever calls it that anymore) was another NaNoWriMo entry, and the first several chapters start with flashbacks - flashbacks are also studded throughout the narrative, breaking up the "present-day" story.
Point of view changes either from chapter to chapter, or half-chapter to half-chapter. The style I'm emulating is omniscient narrative, but I find it hard not to stick with at least moderately tight third person. (The narrator does occasionally get away from me in some deliciously freeing wild observations of the characters from outside).
What do you do when you find that the story has run away into one direction, and then you check bits that you wrote earlier (which by now is possibly 15 months earlier...!) and you realise that the characters and the plot were quite different back then. Especially the characters because plot is easier to fix, I find, but characters...! How do you keep track of what characters are like?
I have a very rough outline (Character A born in 1853, is in Egypt in 1874, the Balkans in 1875, on Mars in 1880 sort of thing) that allows me to make sure the characters don't accidentally do things before they're born or anything. When it comes to character changes, it depends on both the length of time I've been writing, and the internal chronology of the story - one character in Bleed Into One starts out as fearing/not liking another, and now is very fond of that character. The readers are happy to accept that as not only have I been writing the characters liking each other for many chapters, but also it's taken them three years of internal chronology to get to that point. It's interesting to look back and see how the characters were at first, and I think careful re-reading is needed to make sure that any changes are a natural outgrowth of the story, not a result of having forgotten what was originally said!
When it comes to backstories, I allow in scenes that illuminate the characters as they now are, but don't give the whole story. Throwaway references between characters are good in showing there's more story there than the readers can see.
(This reply got too loooong! Contd. in next reply.)
(no subject)
Date: 2006-02-04 11:06 am (UTC)What do you do about exposition? . . . How do you do the planting-clues-in-chapter-one thing, and then the resolving-the-clue-in-chapter-538 and not the forgetting-that-I-had-planted-this-clue?
Keep rough notes! If you think it's important that right at the end of the story the characters will need a change of clothes, make reference to them having clothes packed away in an earlier section (in other words, work backwards from desired results. What will your characters need to achieve plot point X? Make sure plot device Y is mentioned some time before they use it.) Exposition depends on the style of the narrative - I'm pretty lucky in that crazy Victorian-style narrators can get away with a lot of details (including implicit/explicit moral judgements on the action). In gernal, though, it's possible to have a more relaxed style of exposition in longer stories.
In order to prevent myself being overwhelmed by the longness, I both post shorter stories in between updates to the long ones, and post the long ones as WiPs. Each chapter tends to be about the same length as a short fic (I aim for 3-4K words per chapter), which I feel is better than posting lots of smaller pieces. If I were to wait till the story were over I fear that no one would want to read it, and I would be overwhelmed by the length (the three mentioned stories are between 70K and 160K words long) - I don't really fit the usual demographic with my unusual fandom, but I try to post the long fics like serialised adventures, ending chapters at a point where the reader will hopefully want to know more. It's a strategy that seems to work!
(no subject)
Date: 2006-02-06 10:38 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-02-06 10:37 pm (UTC)I am envious that you are trying for omniscient; I find that the most difficult of all the povs and have only tried it here and there in snippetlets.
I like the point about throwaway references to backstory, a sort of tip of the iceberg. I always tend to plonk in everything! But maybe that's the way I have to write my first draft, and then I can go and prune later. And hope that I haven't fallen too much in love with my verbiage by then...!
(no subject)
Date: 2006-02-07 12:07 am (UTC)Ah, well then I write in longhand and transcribe later :-)
I always tend to plonk in everything! But maybe that's the way I have to write my first draft, and then I can go and prune later.
One thing you could do, if you don't want to lose material, is simply to break it up into numerous small bits and just drop the little bits in at appropriate points - for example, in one of my long stories, many of the major characters went to what is basically a boarding school from hell. Rather than have chapter after chapter of misery in their early lives at the start of the story I had flashbacks of a brief scene of their happy lives before the point they were taken to the school, followed by the main time line of the story, interleaved with flashbacks of what they'd been doing after they left the school to get to the main timeline, and so on. It took a long time before I had scenes in the actual school itself, by which time I'd hoped I'd set it up as a huge pivotal point in their lives that influenced them greatly and that was too big for them to think about too much - this method of dealing with it also allows me to never need to say exactly what sort of horrible abuse one character underwent there, as it's hopefully clear in his rather frantic attempts to keep a much younger character as safe and as innocent as their circumstances allow. Basically, I've found that breaking up the backstory, and making tiny references to it without further elaboration allows things to be said without ever needing to be laid out on the table and perhaps dealt with too clumsily.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-02-07 10:46 pm (UTC)That is really eminently good advice, thank you! *starts to slice and chop* And I like the iceberg approach again. Less is more.
No, really, this has been so helpful! Um, where do I know you from??
(no subject)
Date: 2006-02-07 11:04 pm (UTC)Possibly you know me through reading some of my Good Omens fic? Most of my stories are either Good Omens, Weiss Kreuz or Victorian sci-fi adventures, though I have smaller amounts of fic in other fandoms, primarily Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Or maybe you've seen me (ages ago) on the Yahoo groups ClarkLex or CrowleysAngels?
(no subject)
Date: 2006-02-08 09:46 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-02-07 11:12 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-02-07 11:47 pm (UTC)The first thing to say is that you don't have to watch the series to understand what's going on in the fics, usually (which is good, because much though I love Weiss Kreuz, I have to admit it's kind of . . . bad).
This is a good overview of the source, that tells you pretty much all you need to know about all the characters. The really good news is that there are some truly excellent writers in the fandom, often writing both hilarious comedies (assassins seem to tickle the funny bone, for some reason) and the darkest of stories. The essays at
Here's a list of some of my favourites - of these, I'd say that
(no subject)
Date: 2006-02-07 11:47 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-02-08 10:36 pm (UTC)Yes, i read toscaskiss's thing. The names of this canon just kill me: Schuldig! Weiss Kreuz! Kritiker! This is so lunatic. (I am German, btw.)
(no subject)
Date: 2006-02-08 10:57 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-02-09 10:25 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-02-09 11:00 pm (UTC)The canon just says that he is German, but he's never shown speaking German in the actual anime (some fans suggest that maybe German is in fact the language the evil secret organisation Eszett uses, but the anime and manga use Japanese for all the dialogue, with occasional snippets of English). Fanon tends to make him speak bad fangirl German, which is pretty funny (when I have him speak German I get it thoroughly checked, and try to have his German be funny only when I mean it to be . . .).
Are there any disturbing Nazi images?
Oh, dear God. Yes. Yes, there are. Like this charming picture of the "good" assassins (Yohji, Aya, Ken, with Omi kneeling in front):
But for the true, "Holy Crap do my eyes decieve me" picture, we have to go with this:
Schuldig, please don't do that . . .
(no subject)
Date: 2006-02-10 09:52 am (UTC)So why aren't Danes burning the Japanese flag already?? *snorts*