California dreaming (nightmaring)

[lobelia321]

For those wot remember my plans to move to California, .

In a nutshell: t'h is desperate to go. I don't want to go.

Not wanting to go put me in a depression when this first came up (March 2008, as per cathexys's post). No, not quite true: for about five days, I was quite excited; I googled schools and realtors and the university campus where we would both be based and made LJ inquiries about being a spousal hire. Then I fell into a deep hole and could not even think about this issue any longer.

By the time, April 2009 came around, I had just about dug myself out of the trauma hole and said, okay, I'll give this a chance, we'll all go for two weeks (it was all paid by t'h's prospective employer) and we did. The whole family visited for two weeks and we had a good look around. I came back and I still didn't want to move there. I felt nothing pulling me there. I still don't. I got depressed again.

T'h tries to convince me with arguments. 'But of course we will make friends. We won't have any at first but then we will.' 'Look at the crap weather! Look out of the window! It wouldn't be like this in California!' 'T'children will make new friends.' 'You hate your job here. This is a fantastic opportunity for you to have a better job and a better life.' 'We will make tons of money. So we will be able to afford travelling to Europe a lot!' 'You've always said you would love to live on the Pacific. California is on the Pacific.'

All of the above is true. But I am finding, that as with getting married or having a baby, you cannot argue your way into a decision about moving. My gut says 'no'. I would like it to say 'yes'. It makes me unhappy that it says 'no'. I'm not sure even if I should trust the gut.

I'm thinking: twice in a row I was faced with this decision, and twice I became depressed. A sign? Or am I the plaything of irrational mood swings? I know that I am projecting my own history and trauma onto this: I was moved from one country to another when I was 11, and it was traumatic. It took years to like my new home. After that, I moved myself from country to country; I think this was like re-enacting the trauma but this time I was in control. Now I've ended up in a country I wouldn't have chosen but here I have lived for 18 years and I want to stay put, at least until t'sons are out of school.

T'h is sad. For him, it's a wonderful opportunity destroyed; he's sick of his job here and of the weather here. He's Australian, so maybe it's also the pull of the New World.

Comments

[rhiannonhero.livejournal.com]

Depression is scary. (I say this as a recovered(ing??) depressive, myself.) If it causes that response in you, then I think staying where you are is a good plan.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

One thing about depression is, I find, that I start to distrust the good times. When I'm feeling okay, I'm always suspicious, thinking 'maybe this is just the pride before the fall, maybe I'm being hysterical, this isn't real, only depression is real'. Another pitfall is fearing that every low mood will lead to depression, and not allowing yourself to be sad or upset.

[rhiannonhero.livejournal.com]

Now that I'm about four years out from my last depressive episode, the former isn't as problematic for me as the latter. I still freak out if I feel low for a week or so, thinking, "OMG! It's starting again!!" I am lucky, though, being this far out from the last one, that I no longer believe that depression is the reality. I know it is actually a murderer who wants to slit my throat and take my life, and so I have to fight it off with everything I've got. Not just for me, but for my kid. :)

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

I am being obtuse but what murderer? You mean the depression is the murderer so you have to fight fight fight? But god, how do you do it? Did you take anti-depression tae kwon do lessons?

Four years!! That gives me hope! How did you do it??

[rhiannonhero.livejournal.com]

Yes, Depression is the murderer.

Part of what kept me in depression for so long was the idea that I was as fault, that it was me that was the problem, that I was lazy, that I was horrible, that I didn't deserve to feel better, that if I would just do what I was supposed to do, then all would be better, and I wouldn't suck so much.

I realized at some point that those things, those words, were in fact Depression itself, and somewhere along the way, I began to envision Depression as a person -- not me -- but a person who is fighting for control over my life with the full intention of bleeding me dry, of taking everything that I have and ruining it, and possibly even taking my actual and literal life.

I envisioned this person as a woman. A beautiful, sexy woman with dark hair, and a black eye, and knee high boots, in which she conceals a straight edge razor, and her aim, you see, is to worm her way into my life, and to destroy it, and to eventually slit my throat -- taking away my child's mother, my husband's wife, my mother's daughter, my friends' friend. That is what she does.

So, yes, I fight her. In my mind, I envision her, and I kick her and I punch her, and I push her out the door, and I slam it, and I lock it, and even though she kicks it down, I push her back out, and put up another door, and I lock, and when she tries to convince me to open it with sweet little promises like, "It won't matter if you don't tak this phone call just this one time....you deserve a break," then I have to remember, "SHE LIES. It won't be just this one time. It will be three months from now and I won't have returned any of my friend's calls or emails. She is a lying, addictive bitch."

How do I fight it in reality? Very carefully. I know the signs of my depression for the most part. It starts with small avoidances, things that feel good because I feel like i'm taking care of myself, allowing myself a little break. Things like not answering the phone, or not getting the mail, or not looking at my bank account, or not replying to emails, or not doing my work, or not paying attention to my child, or whatever. Small, delicious lures that really pull me in. When I recognize, "Hey, that's a lure. That's that bitch again," I force myself to NOT TAKE THE BAIT. It's hard. It's hard, hard, hard work, but it is worth it in the end.

As for meds, I'm not on any right now, but I've been on them before. They have a place. My BFF is on several, including Abilify, and it has turned her life around. I am so excited about it!!! :) So, yeah, drugs can work for some people! (Actually, I am on meds. I take something for my ADD -- vyvanse.)

Also, when I was battling coming out of my depression, I had a theme song. It was "A Better Son/Daughter" by Rilo Kiley. I listened to it every day and yelled it to myself, and I called it my "Marching Orders". These were my commands to myself.

"And sometimes when you're on
You're really fuckin' on
And your friends they sing along
And they love you
But the lows are so extreme
That the good seems fuckin' cheap
And it teases you for weeks in its absence.

But you'll fight and you'll make it through
You'll fake it if you have to
And you'll show up for work with a smile.
You'll be better
And You'll be smarter
And more grown up and a better daughter, or son,
And a real good friend
And you'll be awake
You'll be alert
You'll be positive though it hurts
And you'll laugh and embrace all your friends
And you'll be a real good listener
You'll be honest
You'll be brave
You'll be handsome and you'll be beautiful
You'll be happy

Your ship may be comin' in
You're weak but not givin' in
To the cries and the wails of the valley below
And your ship may be comin' in
You're weak but not givin' in
And you'll fight it you'll go out fightin' all of 'em"

Here, for you, in case it might help you too:
http://www.box.net/shared/26n8j2omae

Also, you can look on my LJ for posts about depression. Here are a few:
http://rhiannonhero.livejournal.com/980354.html
http://rhiannonhero.livejournal.com/1267508.html
http://rhiannonhero.livejournal.com/972667.html

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

I circled round this post for a bit first, getting sidetracked onto your actual journal and then your fic journal and then ending up with your rec of Velvetglove's Raping the Slaves... it's nervous-making, reading about depression!

But now that I've read it I find this really, really helpful. The song is very sad, just reading the words... or no, not sad, but sort of weep-making. Once I've finished replying, I will click on the link and listen.

I, too, have envisioned the depression as something else but not as concrete as your evil woman but the concreteness may actually really help, and the knowing she's a lying bitch. This really struck a chord:

It starts with small avoidances, things that feel good because I feel like i'm taking care of myself, allowing myself a little break.
That is so absolutely true to my own experience! And I had never really seen it that way. It is not the horror that lures you in but an actual Nice Thing. I absolutely know this: yes, I should lie in the sun for three hours, I deserve this. And the illusion that I'm 'taking care' of myself. In depression, it seems to me, or for me at least, there is always a mixture of craven diffidence (I am worth nothing) and megalomanic hubris and self-obsession (I deserve this; the world revolves around me; me me me). One of the first things to go with me is the connection with other people so I empathise loads with the not-answering-phone-calls. Because the me-me-me takes over.

I've sometimes fled into LJ away from rl friends but I know it's really rockbottom bad when I don't even turn on the computer any longer.

I want to read your other posts but may leave this till tomorrow because it's a lot to think about and exhausting (also late at night!).

I was on medication for 7 months and then stopped it. I can't remember the name of the tablets but posted them somewhere. I stopped them when they made me indifferent to a fit that my mother had over Christmas, and I thought, "I actually want to be feeling upset about this."

[rhiannonhero.livejournal.com]

I'm honored and glad that you found something of value in this comment. And I'm also amused that you read Jed's story. She's an amazing writer! :)

[kathputli-girl.livejournal.com]

Moving to a new place in the same city was totally depressing and weird for me. I can't imagine having to move to a whole different country especially if you don't want to go! I hope you get to stay where you want to be.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

You moved in the same city? Actually, I remember moving within Berlin and being totally depressed when we first moved to an area I loved, a flat I loved... but somehow the feeling that I now 'ought' to be happy totally got me down.

[kathputli-girl.livejournal.com]

Yep. Once we got the Condo ready in August, I moved in and it's in a different area. I moved out of this area I live in now when I was 22, to live in a more Urban area for the last almost 20 years! Now I have moved back to the same area where I grew up. It's only 20 minutes drive from where I lived but it's technically actually considered a different city I think. Or else it's a "county" within the city? Something like that. Anyway it feels weird to be living back in the area where I grew up and left so many years ago. Also it is at least 10 degrees hotter during the summer months which is just dreadful! Hahah. Its actually really different here than were I had been living; it's a better neighborhood and less crime and a bit more suburban. But I do miss all the shops and places in my old neighborhood I used to be able to either walk to or take a 10 min busride to, which now would take me almost an hour on the bus to get to!

[azewewish.livejournal.com]

Have you tried talking to anyone about this depression and trying to figure out what's causing it? Also, how do the boys feel about potentially moving?

I'm only asking because it seems to me that one of you is going to be miserable no matter what the outcome is, which isn't exactly fair to you or the hubby.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

I've talked to almost too many people, including two counsellors/therapists (one of the cognitive behavioural therapy, the other a regular 'talking' person). Talking to people can be confusing because people have their own agenda. Most people can't understand why I don't want to go and see this as a fabulous opportunity which makes me feel isolated and also a bit resentful because I think, well, it's all very well for me to be living 'your' dreams but you're not the ones having to go. Then we do know a few people who have done the same thing, academics who moved to universities in the USA from the UK and who advise *against* going there -- so that gives me pause, obviously, but I realise that these people, too, have their own agendas and reasons for giving this advice. The problem is that in the end we and I need to figure this out for ourselves.

The boys have figured out that this is a Big Problem for their parents and that whatever they say may be construed as 'taking sides' so they have wisely been keeping out of it and not saying anything. I think the older one is game and the younger one doesn't want to go.

one of you is going to be miserable
This is the horrible problem. It's the first time in our marriage/relationship that we have been faced with such a stark opposition of feeling. I just wish t'h could find something else to make him happy, and then I could be happy.

[azewewish.livejournal.com]

The way I see it, you have legitimate reasons for wanting to stay in England & the hubby has legitimate reasons for wanting to move. And any therapist worth their salt should be able to figure that out & not judge you for not wanting to uproot your life, just as your academic friends shouldn't judge the hubby for wanting to take advantage of this great opportunity.

Also, I think you've raised smart kids. But it's their lives too, and they should have a say. At least, I would have wanted someone to ask me what I wanted in that situation at that age.

I just wish t'h could find something else to make him happy, and then I could be happy.

Okay, that sentence right there does concern me, because it's coming from a very selfish place. (Not that you don't have a right to be selfish - this is your life we're talking about.) But wishing for the hubby to be someone he's not in order to make you happy is a surefire way to breed resentment & that's not something you want in this situation. You both have enough stress on you in trying to resolve this without that emotion seeping in.

I wish I could help you, I really do. Moving is incredibly stressful, as is giving up your entire life & lifestyle. On the other hand, it can be the most freeing thing in the entire world & sometimes in life we need the reset button. I hope you & the family can come to a compromise or solution that works and that doesn't undermine the life & family you've built together. *HUGS*

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Thanks for all of these thoughts; I really appreciate them. I have to say that my previous therapist (the behavioural cognitive counsellor) gave us one couple session and talked only to t'h and about me in the third person; I felt incredibly disrespected and decided not to go there any longer. And when I tried to set up a couple session with my new counsellor (who's also my old counsellor; she moved away and came back) t'h didn't want to go any longer! I totally agree that it's the counsellor's job not to take sides but it's hard for friends not to do so; I can see that, too, even as I might resent it.

I'm thinking about what you said about my feeling that 'I wish t'h could find something else to make him happy'; I've not yet come to any conclusion about it (and perhaps won't but I want to think it through some more). You did the big moving thing, of course; I still remember your posts en route but I think it has to be me making the decision, and then I can feel ok about it. If I go anywhere, thinking that I'm being "made" to go, I will only resent it.

I'm posting this at the end of a process that's lasted over 2 years. It's been so stressful that partly I didn't want to post about rl, and partly I couldn't, I was simply too agitated or depressed. So now we have only 2 weeks to give our final answer; and in a way, I have already decided. I wish there were a compromise but I don't think there can be as t'h doesn't want to go by himself, without the family.

[azewewish.livejournal.com]

I definitely think that sometimes friends are the worst people to talk to simply because they're biased.

And I have moved across country, um, four times now. And it never gets any easier or any less stressful. But it's easier for me because I don't have kids.

If I go anywhere, thinking that I'm being "made" to go, I will only resent it.

That's a perfectly legitimate thing to feel, because you shouldn't be forced to do anything, especially anything as life changing as a move 7000 miles away, but the flipside is that if the hubby is being made to feel that he's forced to stay in order to keep the family together, it will also breed its own brand of resentment. Hence why I said this is a tricky thing to navigate. My only hope is that you & the hubby are keeping lines of communication open & listening to each other.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

I thought a lot about the lines of communication being open, that you mentioned at the end of your comment. I think that's really important. Thanks for reminding me! It's the first time t'h and I have really disagreed about something very fundamental, and it is tempting not to talk about it but important to do it anyway, although it's painful.

[rhiannonhero.livejournal.com]

The person below said: That's a perfectly legitimate thing to feel, because you shouldn't be forced to do anything, especially anything as life changing as a move 7000 miles away, but the flipside is that if the hubby is being made to feel that he's forced to stay in order to keep the family together, it will also breed its own brand of resentment.

And here's the thing that I think mediates some of this, and that is the depression. Depression is an illness, and it is a very dangerous one. It is unfortunate for you and for your husband that this is something you struggle with and sometimes succumb to, but if you have any hope of overcoming it, then you have to be able to say, "The risk of me spiraling into depression in this situation is simply too great. I can't do that."

For example, when I was going through fertility problems, the doctors wanted to do some medical interventions, but I knew myself well enough to know that I the risk of a depressive spiral was too great if they were jacking me full of crazy hormones, and implanting fertilized eggs, etc. So, I declined. I'd rather have adopted. (It turned out I got pregnant on my own, but I knew myself well enough to know that I could and couldn't handle emotionally.) My husband wasn't entirely sold on the adoption idea, but he wasn't against it either, but it all came down to me knowing what my emotional state could handle while I grew stronger.

If you're in the middle of a depressive episode, or you are just coming out of one, then the likelihood that you're emotionally strong enough to weather something as huge as a 7,000 mile move to another country is not all that good, frankly. And while it is unfortunate for your husband that this is the case, it can be likened to asking someone who is still recovering from a massive car accident where 2/3rds of their body was damaged or injured to get up and run a marathon. You're gonna destroy the vessel before it has truly healed!

So, yeah, I feel for your husband not getting to live his dream, but I think that being married to someone with an illness means that you have to take the bad with the good. And that means that until you're mentally strong enough to do something like that, then of course you won't. And, in the meantime, it is your commitment to grow as mentally and emotionally strong as you possibly can, so that if the day comes when another opportunity arises, you might be able to face it.

That's my totally unsolicited .02 on this matter.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

This, too, gave me pause for thought. I've had conflicting feelings about this in the past, veering from 'how can you make me move abroad and force me back into depression? we won't be able to cope because I'll be depressed' to 'the depression is clouding my judgement on this; underneath it all, maybe I really want to go except the depression is stopping me.' I found it very interesting that your thoughts are to take the depression seriously and take into account what might tip me over. I have been depressed over other things in the past (and depression will move from thing to thing, a bit like a locust; so when one issue is solved, it'll attack the next one) but it is telling that in the past two years I have become terribly depressed twice over the same issue: moving to California. So that is surely a warning sign?

Thank you for all your .02 which must by now surely add up to quite a tidy sum, ;-)

[isiscolo.livejournal.com]

Change is always hard. Gut feelings often reflect this. I hope you can come to some accommodation with your family that results in minimal distress for all.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Thank you, Isis, for your kind thoughts.

[msilverstar]

*hugs you* I wish it was easier.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Yes, it's the first time in our relationship that we really disagree about something fundamental. It is difficult. But your icon is balm to the soul, it truly is!

[anitac588.livejournal.com]

I admire people who can move to another country. I can imagine how some really do enjoy living in US or Australia. Personally, I'd go nuts.

I'm living between two cities/countries, having a total comfort in a foreign one, friends, ties, still, just the idea of actually *moving* there and *live* there scares me. I just cannot do it.

*hugs*

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

I wish I were the kind of gung-ho person who could move easily but I'm not. I used to move a lot, and it was never easy, and now I just don't want to do it.

:-)