the public / private divide in England

[lobelia321]

I live in England. Here, they call 'private schools' 'public schools' (or 'independent schools'), and they call 'public schools' 'state schools'.

In my home country, Germany (where I, by the way, never went to school myself), middle-class angst clusters around the Gymnasium/Realschule/Volksschule divides. All of these three types of school are free (i.e. paid for by taxes) but you have to get high marks in primary school (i.e. age 10) in order to get into a Gymnasium. The Gymnasium takes you all the way to the high school leaving certificate (Abitur) and thence university.

In England, middle-class angst clusters around the private/state school divide. This divide does not exist in Germany. Hence, I feel a bit alien towards it. I was also resistant to private schools because I did not go to one myself. However, t'h went to one in Australia.

In Australia, you pay for an education. In England, you pay for an education but you also always get CLASS with it.

Thus, private schools ('public') are thought of as 'posh', even 'poncy' by some. The kids wear blazers and ties whereas in state schools they wear sweatshirts. Private school proponents, on the other hand, tend to think of state comprehensives as 'chavvy'. (In my school district, the option of going to a selective 'grammar school' does not exist. You either pay, or you go with everyone.)

Now, we had decided to send t'younger son to a state school. We liked the community ethos, the fact that it is very big and thus offers more opportunities, the arty focus of the school, the facilities; and it seemed academically okay.

Then we soulsearched and angsted (as per previous posts) and decided to take him out of that school and move him to his brother's private school up the road. Today was his first day there.

What is terribly sad and (for me) shocking is the terribly large divide between academic standards and class constitution. Today, t'son had Latin homework and physics homework. He has textbooks. He chose from a range of lunchtime clubs that include philosophy, politics, Christianity, table tennis, basketball, drama, choir, fencing, debating and others. He went to the library in his English lesson and read a novel of his choice.

In the other state school, he didn't get one piece of homework in the twelve days he was there. He came home, having coloured in his timetable and labelled a microscope. He had one textbook only. He did have clubs but not nearly as many; they included choir, drama, dance and rugby but also 'lego'. He heard people yelling at each other, 'you fucking so-and-so'; he witnessed a fight; he came home saying he wouldn't go to dance because that was for 'poofy boys'; and he said that one girl who asked a lot of questions in class was a 'know-it-all' and 'posh'. He never speaks like that usually!

I had the impression he was being dumbified. He came home, bought himself a Match of the Day (crappy football/soccer magazine) and vegged in front of the TV. Today he came home, did homework, told us in an animated way about how a wave is formed, remembered what he'd learned about mass and gravity in primary school, did a drawing while sitting in front of the TV, and emailed all his friends. He is a changed boy!!

Nobody said 'fuck' or insulted each other.

I am hugely relieved and very happy and grateful to t'h whose income enables us to afford this option of the private school. I am also saddened at the problematic class structure of the state school which has to cater to a large set of levels and attitudes, and seems to have decided to go at a slower pace for everybody. I did not like the other kids' attitudes I was hearing about. And even though it's good to be able to negotiate a varied social environment and be a bit tough, it's bad to have the love of learning dumbed out of you.

Note: class-wise, I identify as what in Germany is known as Bildungsbürgertum: bourgeois middle-class who set a huge store by education. Their children are made to learn violin, and they don't drive Lexuses.

Comments

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I live in the US but the area of the country where I live also has this problem - the public school education system here is in shambles and no middle-class (or higher) person sends their kids there - so basically from elementary school onwards you have to pay for a really good school.

Hopefully, Husband and I will be able to afford it when Baby Mousie is older but it makes me think how ridiculous it is - unless you are well off, you don't get much of an education at all, even if you pay your school taxes and all.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

It is also the case that the more the educated middle-classes are withdrawing their children from the state system, the worse it gets because that critical mass of interested parents / school governors / kids is gone. It is a real pity but of course, I am sacrificing my principles here for the sake of t'son -- as indeed, most parents do... It mystifies me why the public school system are often in such shambles (transnationally, in this case, it seems!) -- low pay? teacher motivation going down? kids who come from families where there is absolutely no interest in academic achievement? headteachers who lower standards? government systems that lower standards for whatever reason? standards that are not properly implemented? is it the system? or is it the other kids?

So difficult.

[prisoner--24601.livejournal.com]

Oh man, I hear you. We have similar problems here in the US. I just pulled my son out of a very expensive private kindergarten due to the economic instability of where I live. I enrolled him in a public charter school and while I think they're on the right track, I can already tell from the first two weeks that he's not going to get the same quality education.

It seems like we have more options than England. We have charter schools which are technically public schools, but can kick people out, don't have to hire union teachers, can set tighter rules and higher academic standards(like dress codes) and can teach with different educational systems (like Montessori). These schools are free and open to the general public, if a parent chooses to enroll their kid there and there's a space at the school. Unfortunately there are a lot of districts that don't have enough charter schools to meet the demand due to the state setting a cap on the number they'll allow. It's freaking tragic actually.

We also have what are called schools of choice, where you can transfer your kid between public school districts, if you don't like the schools where you live. Some places even have voucher schools now (but not here) where the state puts the money per kid under the control of the parents, who can then decide if they want to use that money to send the kid to a public, private or charter school.

Right now for us, the public charter seems to be the best option. He won't get the same first class quality education that he would have gotten, but it's definitely better than the traditional public alternatives.

Anyway, it's interesting to know that parents across the pond have the same problems we face here.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Gads, it seems the problems are transnational, that's for sure. The charter schools sound as if they're possibly the equivalent of several types of school here in the UK: there are grammar schools that are selective academically (except our shire doesn't have them, *gnashes teeth*); there are faith schools that can operate according to a slightly modified curriculum and so forth (we had that option as t'sons are Catholic but I didn't want them to have more preachy stuff; they've already had that at primary school level; also the academic standards at the faith school are dubious). If you want Montessori in the UK, you have to pay, though.

Theoretically, everyone here has a 'choice', haha. Your catchment school / school district school has to guarantee a place for your child but you can put yourself on the waiting list for schools outside your own district. Our own catchment school is total crap and was put into government measures a few years ago because it was a 'Failing School' so we *had* to go for the waiting list option. Of course, the desirable schools are all over-subscribed so you don't stand a chance, haha 'choice'.

The capping of charter schools that you mention sounds like yet another annoying and baffling government educational measure; these measures seem to follow the same sort of whim and political expedience on either side of the Atlantic.

It is *so* difficult!

[brightest-blue.livejournal.com]

Interesting! Discouraging, as well. We seem to have similar problems here in the US. I was fortunate, in that I attended a small rural public school that happened to be very good, but it seems that city public schools are just terrible, for the most part. Good schools seem so rare, that people go to great lengths and expense to live in the "right" neighborhoods.

Private schools are generally better, but you do have to do your homework there as well (so to speak), because they tend to draw the trouble-makers that got kicked out of all of the public schools.

Proponents of change have placed great stock in partially-publicly-funded-privately-run charter schools, but the quality of those seems uneven as well. I'd love to be supportive of the public school system, but I'd look long and hard before sending any of my own potential offspring into it. So far, my school-age nieces and nephews are in private school or being home-schooled (not a good solution in most cases, imo).

I'm glad your son is doing well at his new school!

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Natashachen! Always nice to hear from you!!!

When you say 'good school' what do you mean? I've found out it can mean so many things: academically tough (and then people's standards differ: what some think is academically challenging, I might think not so); nice middle-class cohort of kids (so no 'rough' kids -- and perhaps that's what you mean when you contrast it with a city school where there might be more problems with kids from families that don't place priority premium on education necessarily because they've got other problems); well-run; good facilities; good community ethos.

Someone above already mentioned charter schools and said that the government in the US was capping these! I, too, would love to be supportive of the public school system especially as that system relies on the middle-classes sending their kids there to achieve critical mass. So it gets worse when those kids from families who value education are withdrawn from the system. But, alas, I have had to sacrifice my principles for the well-being of t'son, as no doubt, most parents are doing...

Home-schooling is not much done here in the UK and, instinctively, I am against it because goodness, what parent is a qualified professional???

[brightest-blue.livejournal.com]

Well, by "good," I suppose I mean academically rigorous enough to prepare students for university, and with minimal social problems distracting from the learning experience. I felt my school was quite successful in the academic department because I noticed that when I started university, I was way ahead of the majority of my peers, and most of my high school classmates felt the same way.

Even though we were a small, rural school, the student population was essentially middle-class, mostly the offspring of fairly well-off and educated small farmers. I've heard that's changed quite a bit in recent years as the population shifts to mostly migrant farm workers. They seem to have much bigger problems with teenage pregnancy and drug use than we did.

My main complaint was the lack of extra-curricular activities. Aside from the basic sports, there just wasn't much, and I would say that was the main thing keeping it from being a truly first-class education. I tried to start a chess club for example, and the only other student who showed up was my brother. :-)

I have real issues with home-schooling, especially the way my brother and sister-in-law are doing it. They're so disorganized! I've seen some successes, but those are always when the parents themselves are highly educated and disciplined. Even then, I've noticed that most of those kids are necessarily well-adapted socially. I guess I'd sooner put up with a deficient public school education, and try to supplement it with some home-schooling aspects, if necessary.

Don't feel too bad about putting your son first, though. While it's important that people like you support the public system, your parental responsibilities trump the public interest, IMO.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Extra-curricular enrichment was one of the reasons we chose the state village college initially but it turned out that even here they offer less than the much smaller private school. Already, t'son is doing basketball and climbing, and in the other school he signed up for choir 'because X signed up' -- so he did it in order not to feel lonely, rather because he was interested.

What you say is interesting, and sad (but also funny in a Rodney McKay'ish sort of way) about the chess club!!

T'son now has physics, chemistry, biology (all in labs), art, music, English, Latin, Arabic, religious studies, maths, tech,history and geography -- I have no idea how one would replicate this in home-schooling. I don't think one can.

[rhiannonhero.livejournal.com]

Oh my gosh, I have so much to say on this subject (in the US, though) and no time to say it. Let's just say that my experience mirrors your own. I hope to be able to come back and say more.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

We parents (in my experience) could probably go on about this topic for hours.

*sigh* And principles do inevitably get compromised when it involves one's own children...

[viva-gloria.livejournal.com]

as a product of the state school system, I can honestly say that I still have a chip on my shoulder despite it being nearly 30 years since I escaped. It was rough (some of the girls in my class carried knives), academic standards were low and I was miserable.
Sounds like your younger son is thriving at new school, and that is the important thing!

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

I have found that in England the whole public/private debate comes precisely with what you describe: chips on shoulders. And each side has them. I find it difficult (and almost impossible with some people) to discuss this topic dispassionately and impartially; everyone has their agenda and principles and ideologies and party affiliations and class positioning, and is either proud of having negotiated the state school system and become tough, or ashamed at not having learned enough and must now compensate what they perceive as a lack by training up their own children, or swears by private education without even refusing to consider attending any other Open Day, or... or... or... *sigh*

The thing is, looking back on one's own experience is different to being confronted with the experience of one's son, I'm finding, and I don't want him to be exposed to anything that (rationally) I might concede will help him in toughing out life - I just want to build a cocoon around him!

So yes, t'older one who's already at the private school then walks home and gets threatened by Lad With Knife...!!

But you went to a school with knife-carrying girls...!!! I never knew!

[kiku65.livejournal.com]

Keep him in private. I went to one after two terms in a public school, and the difference for was like that of (almost literally) heaven and hell. In the public school I was a nerdy little twerp who spent her lunchtimes in the corner of the playground alone cos the library didn't open until 1:30. In the private school I joined clubs, had my dyspraxia diagnosed and actually made friends for the first time ever. No-one really cared I had no money and came from a lower-middle-class family.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Extraordinary. It is so sad that it has to be this way. And it seems unbelievable that there really could be a school with hundreds of kids in it where nobody is real 'friends'-material. But it really seems as if this could be reality. Another thing I noticed was the private school is much more international than the village college which seemed more homogeneous. In t'son's class now are Indian boys and Chinese boys, and judging from surnames, at least one German, one Russian and one Jewish boy. I'm used to this mix from his Catholic primary school (where it was more Poles, Italians, Latin Americans and Irish) and it does foster tolerance.

[miso-no-tsuki.livejournal.com]

Oh don't get me started. I went to a Grammar School (passed 11 plus) and was quite happy to be a nerd girl in an all-girls school which had it's own sixth form. Then I went to Uni. My other half also passed his 11 plus but was told that there weren't any places at the Grammar unless you paid. His dad was a taxi driver and somehow they scraped the money together to pay. Experiences with our own kids were bad. Both in secondary School were identified as "Gifted or Academically talented"- there was a newsletter for us parents, but nothing else ... no attempt was made to give them something extra, or to challenge them. We did the best we could at home, taking them to Science lectures, Museums, etc. daughter has returned from Oxford bearing her 2i Hons in Biology, son has just started. We're paying as much as we can but this money is coming out of our savings. What kills me is all the years of effort we put in, as helpers in class, as a School Governor, as a committee member of the PTA, yadda yadda.
And then we get a Government which goes on about "middle-class privilege" and how *we* are ruining the state education system. By being actively interested in and supportive of our children's education.WTF?
One of my friends is a primary school teacher and she came over to me a few months back for a chat. She told me how she had sent a child home with her first reader, only to have it returned the next day with a curt note that it was *her job* to teach the kid to read, not the parent's.
Presumably this is the kind of parent our Government wants?
*cries*

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

*cries right along with you* The story about the reader is terrifying. It's this sort of family attitude that breeds dumbness and by the time that sad little child is 11, the rest of its life is already set -- or it will be a big struggle.

And I hear you on the government going on about middle-class privilege! I hadn't quite thought of it in that way but so true, yes! If it weren't for some remnant of middle-class participation in state school education, that whole side of it would be really and totally down the toilet by now. And yes, all the effort...! I've not been governor but I've been on the PTA... plus the supplementing of what's provided with music lessons, sports classes and whatnot. One thing the private sector organises largely for you is all that extra-curricular side: sports, music, all arranged by the school.

It makes me angry to hear about what you say about a letter re' academically talented' and then nothing. It reminds me of t'son being identified as 'artistically gifted' in Year 4 but then the school not being able to do anything about it as they had no teacher who knew anything about art! Clearly, they fulfill some sort of government guideline (here's a form; identify the gifted ones) but have no resources to put behind it at all.

[minavox.livejournal.com]

Just to drop in some more depressing thoughts:

In England, middle-class angst clusters around the private/state school divide. This divide does not exist in Germany.

Sadly, people are working on creating it with much dedication. At least in Berlin private schools pop out of the ground like mushrooms. I find it horrible, especially when majorities tip over and there are not enough pupils with parents, who are actually interested in education, left at state schools. Because then they get less and less attractive for the remaining few.

And yes, of course the son goes to a private kindergarten. Groups are small, official language is German, not Turkish (there lots of children with non-German roots, but not one dominating group, and that makes all the difference), teachers are engaged, it's near - and still I'm alienated a bit by the posh other parents when I pick him up. And a bit worried if he'll actually make friends there the way he did at the stately, but excellent daycare he went to before.

Ack. Parenting. Horrible business. Especially if you have political opinions and morals, too!

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Aha, interesting re the new situation in Germany and private education! I had heard about this, now that you mention it. The Realschule/Gymnasium divide is, of course, insidious enough; you don't have to pay but my sister who lives in Germany suffers angst with every child as they basically get slotted into their future careers at around age 9 or 10 -- she spends hours on homework with them.

Being a parent is sometimes gruelling!