you just gave me the perfect excuse to not work any further on my new zealand essay today! because although I wrote you feedback on Arthropods some time ago, I definetely have to re-read the story to answer the question. yay! juliane
after rereading the series and some thinking, I'm not really wiser than before :) It is of course obvious how interested Dom is in everything, how he constantly seems intent on learning something new. I got the impression that Dom does the same thing with Karl, he sees him as a part of his environment which, like the ants, is very worth exploring. at the same time, he can learn more about himself, his emotions, and he seems to welcome that experience, too. it is not easy to say if dom is really attracted to karl from the beginning (I think he is in love with Karl in "Bathtub"), or if he starts out simply experimenting. considering chapter 2 - 6, I would opt for experimenting. in the first chapter, however, I got the impression that Dom is quite fascinated with Karl or even a bit in love. as in the following chapters, he is engrossed with little details, but here it seems that he is because he doesn't want to be engrossed with karl. when he applies the sun lotion to karl's belly, for instance, he seems too concentrated on the lotion than could be real, and therefore I got the impression that he doesn't want to admit to himself he might be more fascinated with touching Karl's belly. urgh. did that make sense? another thing I've noticed this time around how amazingly self-confident Dom appears, even in chapter one. it is really refreshing to read about someone who doesn't seem to drown in angst. I know from experience that angst is unfortunately a big part of reality, but it's great to read a story that is neither angsty nor fluff. hope I was of any help! juliane
Thank you so much for replying!! It's so generous of you to re-read and to think about my question.
What you say is very interesting and really helpful. The character of Karl has developed quite a bit since the Arthropods series and I think I lost sight a bit of Dom's beginnings (with Karl). What you say (what you got out of it) makes great sense to me and reminds me of how this series started.
It is of course obvious how interested Dom is in everything, how he constantly seems intent on learning something new. I got the impression that Dom does the same thing with Karl, he sees him as a part of his environment which, like the ants, is very worth exploring. Oh, I am so glad this came across. This is partly how I see Dom. This is really helpful and clarifies a lot in my mind.
at the same time, he can learn more about himself, his emotions, and he seems to welcome that experience, too. Yes, because given how this fic is turning into such a long thing, Dom has got to change in some way, he's got to be learning *something* or discovering something, not only about Karl but also about himself. I know what he discovers and this is reminding me how he didn't know it at the beginning and maybe to play that up a bit more. (You can see how I'm tying myself in knots here, *g*, not wanting to give away too much.)
it is not easy to say if dom is really attracted to karl from the beginning (I think he is in love with Karl in "Bathtub"), Oh, gah. I am happy that the difference between 'Bathtub' and Arthropods was evident. Maybe this story *can* be finished at some point... This gives me hope.
he seems too concentrated on the lotion than could be real, and therefore I got the impression that he doesn't want to admit to himself he might be more fascinated with touching Karl's belly. Oh wow, yes, I hadn't realised this but of course, it immediately makes sense to me. (How these things creep in without even the author noticing... which is why, I guess, I posted this question to begin with).
another thing I've noticed this time around how amazingly self-confident Dom appears, even in chapter one. it is really refreshing to read about someone who doesn't seem to drown in angst. I know from experience that angst is unfortunately a big part of reality, but it's great to read a story that is neither angsty nor fluff. Hm, that is interesting. Now it's up to me to discover *why* Dom is so self-confident and whether that's a good or a bad thing or, more likely, something less straightforward. And I'm afraid the story did turn into angst, alas. It's going to be very different from Arthropods; I didn't intend this but it's going to be, alas, a major angst fest.
Thank you *so much* for replying. This has been really helpful. Sometimes you need a person from the outside to look over your shoulder and notice things that you'd lost sight of. *gg*
Ok, have re-read Arthropods and the two sequels (ooh, what a hardship!) and the little I've come up with is probably unhelpful/obvious/irrelevant. But anyway. To get on with it:
Very much agreed with juliane about Dominic seeing Karl as part of his environment, something to be investigated. Dom likes looking at the world from odd angles. He wants to know how things work, what makes them tick.
Dom always has the upper hand. Karl woos, Karl travels, Karl brings presents. Dom asks direct questions that will give him control over a given situation: "Why are you here?" "What were you doing?" "Who were you looking for?" etc. Karl initiates action, but Dom makes up the rules. "That's allowed."
I kind of get the feeling that the more interested Dom becomes in Karl, the more he needs to be in control. Sometimes he comes across as having this rather innocent, almost childlike personality, existing at right-angles to the rest of the human race, and then at other times he seems quite calculating. He doesn't give much away, does he?
Errr, that's about all my tiny brain can come up with for the moment. Hope it wasn't too useless :)
Thanks so much for going to the trouble of re-reading and leaving a comment!
Hope it wasn't too useless :) No, absolutely on the contrary! This is extremely useful. In fact, since I first posted my question I have been racking my brain about this, and what you say chimes in perfectly with some of the things I've been thinking about.
Very much agreed with juliane about Dominic seeing Karl as part of his environment, something to be investigated. Dom likes looking at the world from odd angles. He wants to know how things work, what makes them tick. OK, I'm so glad that came across, the wanting to know how things tick.
Karl initiates action, but Dom makes up the rules. "That's allowed." I kind of get the feeling that the more interested Dom becomes in Karl, the more he needs to be in control. This is very, very interesting. I hadn't thought that much about the control-issue before but it makes sense to me. And this morning (after reading your comment) I finally figured out at least part of the reason why Dominic needs to be in control, or feels that he needs to be in control.
Sometimes he comes across as having this rather innocent, almost childlike personality, existing at right-angles to the rest of the human race, and then at other times he seems quite calculating. He doesn't give much away, does he? No, he doesn't!! And not to me, either -- I really have had to make him! I like your right-angles interpretation.
I've been reading the comments left about your K/D epic and would like to say that the thing that hits me when I re-read these fics is the whole issue of control. Dom does appear, when one looks hard at him, to be rather passive-aggressive. He pretty much allows Karl to move everything forwards whilst retaining control of the situation.
When seen casually, he appears to be very laid-back and relaxed about things, but when the reader scratches the surface, they see that he never really allows Karl to do anything that Dom doesn't feel okay with. There is no real spontaneity in him. It's as if he does a quick reccy up and goes along with Karl when he sees that it will: a) cause Dom no hardship b) possibly be fun c) allow him to retain the upper hand.
It is Karl who is the one doing the wooing. Dom, who obviously enjoys this, never takes resonsibility for what happens at any point. He is the one to whom things happen. Even his flirtation with Karl - via the crabs, the spiders, the ants - never really seems driven by any real desire for Karl.
What I have noticed, because I have just re-read the other D/K fics, is that your Dom tends to be passive when you write him with Karl. This, as far as I can remember, is not so for the other times that you have written him (perfect day and so on). Only with Karl. I wonder if you feel that Karl is the aggressor in relation to Dom and so give them these roles? Dom can, of course, reject Karl at any point, and the fact that he does not tends to make me think that this passive-aggression is his way if getting what he wants. Whether that actually is Karl, or whether Karl is seen by Dom to be a make-do. Why fight it? Does Dom want Karl because he has nothing else and because he enjoys the attention? Or is his manner and approach how he gets to his goal - in this case, Karl?
Anyway, am rambling and probably not making much sense! For which I apologise. :)
Hope all the comments from people have given you a way into moving on with the fic. I am very much looking forward to seeing how it turns out in the end.
Thanks so much for leaving a comment, Laz! It's all very interesting and helpful, both the comments that chime in with what I was attempting to convey (sigh of relief) and the comments that tell me something that hadn't occurred to me (making me *think*).
the thing that hits me when I re-read these fics is the whole issue of control. This is interesting because I really only started to think about that when I'd got the first lot of comments and then it made sense to me, I could see how it would fit in. Interestingly, the control thing is (to me) more of a Karl-issue and it surprised me to see that you (and one other person) thought it affected Dominic. It really made me think very carefully about Dominic again (is still making me think).
When seen casually, he appears to be very laid-back and relaxed about things, but when the reader scratches the surface, they see that he never really allows Karl to do anything that Dom doesn't feel okay with. Thanks loads for this which had not occurred to me at all. Now I am really having to think whether Dominic *is* this way, whether he changes at all in the course of the story, whether Karl *sees* him like this, whether he kids himself into seeing himself like this but perhaps really isn't -- and so forth.
It is Karl who is the one doing the wooing. Dom, who obviously enjoys this, never takes resonsibility for what happens at any point. He is the one to whom things happen. Again, very interesting. This is really helpful and I have already had a major thought about Dominic where I think I have cracked at least one of the issues you raise here.
What I have noticed, because I have just re-read the other D/K fics, is that your Dom tends to be passive when you write him with Karl. I have only written two k/ds, the Arthropods and its present sequel, and Different Tastes. I tried to make Diff. Tastes the antithesis of the Arthrop one but, heh, it seems that unnoticed similarities crept in!! *g*
I wonder if you feel that Karl is the aggressor in relation to Dom and so give them these roles? The story has changed a lot since Arthropods and it is very interesting that you see it this way. It makes me realise what a lot of territory gets covered in the course of the fic and makes me go back to check whether I have laid the stepping stones clearly enough.
Why fight it? Does Dom want Karl because he has nothing else and because he enjoys the attention? Or is his manner and approach how he gets to his goal - in this case, Karl? Thank you!!! Because I don't know the answer to this one which is very good because it means I need to sit down and *think*.
Thanks oodles for commenting. I am thinking and writing new scenes in response to all of these comments, as I speak! (Well, not quite as I speak, obviously, but the draft is sitting in longhand form next to my keyboard.)
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Date: 2003-01-09 02:10 pm (UTC)you just gave me the perfect excuse to not work any further on my new zealand essay today! because although I wrote you feedback on Arthropods some time ago, I definetely have to re-read the story to answer the question. yay!
juliane
(no subject)
Date: 2003-01-10 04:42 am (UTC)after rereading the series and some thinking, I'm not really wiser than before :)
It is of course obvious how interested Dom is in everything, how he constantly seems intent on learning something new. I got the impression that Dom does the same thing with Karl, he sees him as a part of his environment which, like the ants, is very worth exploring. at the same time, he can learn more about himself, his emotions, and he seems to welcome that experience, too.
it is not easy to say if dom is really attracted to karl from the beginning (I think he is in love with Karl in "Bathtub"), or if he starts out simply experimenting. considering chapter 2 - 6, I would opt for experimenting. in the first chapter, however, I got the impression that Dom is quite fascinated with Karl or even a bit in love. as in the following chapters, he is engrossed with little details, but here it seems that he is because he doesn't want to be engrossed with karl. when he applies the sun lotion to karl's belly, for instance, he seems too concentrated on the lotion than could be real, and therefore I got the impression that he doesn't want to admit to himself he might be more fascinated with touching Karl's belly. urgh. did that make sense?
another thing I've noticed this time around how amazingly self-confident Dom appears, even in chapter one. it is really refreshing to read about someone who doesn't seem to drown in angst. I know from experience that angst is unfortunately a big part of reality, but it's great to read a story that is neither angsty nor fluff.
hope I was of any help!
juliane
thanks for comments on k/d
Date: 2003-01-10 07:34 am (UTC)What you say is very interesting and really helpful. The character of Karl has developed quite a bit since the Arthropods series and I think I lost sight a bit of Dom's beginnings (with Karl). What you say (what you got out of it) makes great sense to me and reminds me of how this series started.
It is of course obvious how interested Dom is in everything, how he constantly seems intent on learning something new. I got the impression that Dom does the same thing with Karl, he sees him as a part of his environment which, like the ants, is very worth exploring.
Oh, I am so glad this came across. This is partly how I see Dom. This is really helpful and clarifies a lot in my mind.
at the same time, he can learn more about himself, his emotions, and he seems to welcome that experience, too.
Yes, because given how this fic is turning into such a long thing, Dom has got to change in some way, he's got to be learning *something* or discovering something, not only about Karl but also about himself. I know what he discovers and this is reminding me how he didn't know it at the beginning and maybe to play that up a bit more.
(You can see how I'm tying myself in knots here, *g*, not wanting to give away too much.)
it is not easy to say if dom is really attracted to karl from the beginning (I think he is in love with Karl in "Bathtub"),
Oh, gah. I am happy that the difference between 'Bathtub' and Arthropods was evident. Maybe this story *can* be finished at some point... This gives me hope.
he seems too concentrated on the lotion than could be real, and therefore I got the impression that he doesn't want to admit to himself he might be more fascinated with touching Karl's belly.
Oh wow, yes, I hadn't realised this but of course, it immediately makes sense to me. (How these things creep in without even the author noticing... which is why, I guess, I posted this question to begin with).
another thing I've noticed this time around how amazingly self-confident Dom appears, even in chapter one. it is really refreshing to read about someone who doesn't seem to drown in angst. I know from experience that angst is unfortunately a big part of reality, but it's great to read a story that is neither angsty nor fluff.
Hm, that is interesting. Now it's up to me to discover *why* Dom is so self-confident and whether that's a good or a bad thing or, more likely, something less straightforward. And I'm afraid the story did turn into angst, alas. It's going to be very different from Arthropods; I didn't intend this but it's going to be, alas, a major angst fest.
Thank you *so much* for replying. This has been really helpful. Sometimes you need a person from the outside to look over your shoulder and notice things that you'd lost sight of. *gg*
(no subject)
Date: 2003-01-10 06:22 pm (UTC)Very much agreed with juliane about Dominic seeing Karl as part of his environment, something to be investigated. Dom likes looking at the world from odd angles. He wants to know how things work, what makes them tick.
Dom always has the upper hand. Karl woos, Karl travels, Karl brings presents. Dom asks direct questions that will give him control over a given situation: "Why are you here?" "What were you doing?" "Who were you looking for?" etc. Karl initiates action, but Dom makes up the rules. "That's allowed."
I kind of get the feeling that the more interested Dom becomes in Karl, the more he needs to be in control. Sometimes he comes across as having this rather innocent, almost childlike personality, existing at right-angles to the rest of the human race, and then at other times he seems quite calculating. He doesn't give much away, does he?
Errr, that's about all my tiny brain can come up with for the moment. Hope it wasn't too useless :)
thanks so much
Date: 2003-01-11 04:59 am (UTC)Hope it wasn't too useless :)
No, absolutely on the contrary! This is extremely useful. In fact, since I first posted my question I have been racking my brain about this, and what you say chimes in perfectly with some of the things I've been thinking about.
Very much agreed with juliane about Dominic seeing Karl as part of his environment, something to be investigated. Dom likes looking at the world from odd angles. He wants to know how things work, what makes them tick.
OK, I'm so glad that came across, the wanting to know how things tick.
Karl initiates action, but Dom makes up the rules. "That's allowed."
I kind of get the feeling that the more interested Dom becomes in Karl, the more he needs to be in control.
This is very, very interesting. I hadn't thought that much about the control-issue before but it makes sense to me. And this morning (after reading your comment) I finally figured out at least part of the reason why Dominic needs to be in control, or feels that he needs to be in control.
Sometimes he comes across as having this rather innocent, almost childlike personality, existing at right-angles to the rest of the human race, and then at other times he seems quite calculating. He doesn't give much away, does he?
No, he doesn't!! And not to me, either -- I really have had to make him! I like your right-angles interpretation.
Thanks again!!
(no subject)
Date: 2003-01-13 10:54 am (UTC)When seen casually, he appears to be very laid-back and relaxed about things, but when the reader scratches the surface, they see that he never really allows Karl to do anything that Dom doesn't feel okay with. There is no real spontaneity in him. It's as if he does a quick reccy up and goes along with Karl when he sees that it will:
a) cause Dom no hardship
b) possibly be fun
c) allow him to retain the upper hand.
It is Karl who is the one doing the wooing. Dom, who obviously enjoys this, never takes resonsibility for what happens at any point. He is the one to whom things happen. Even his flirtation with Karl - via the crabs, the spiders, the ants - never really seems driven by any real desire for Karl.
What I have noticed, because I have just re-read the other D/K fics, is that your Dom tends to be passive when you write him with Karl. This, as far as I can remember, is not so for the other times that you have written him (perfect day and so on). Only with Karl. I wonder if you feel that Karl is the aggressor in relation to Dom and so give them these roles? Dom can, of course, reject Karl at any point, and the fact that he does not tends to make me think that this passive-aggression is his way if getting what he wants. Whether that actually is Karl, or whether Karl is seen by Dom to be a make-do. Why fight it? Does Dom want Karl because he has nothing else and because he enjoys the attention? Or is his manner and approach how he gets to his goal - in this case, Karl?
Anyway, am rambling and probably not making much sense! For which I apologise. :)
Hope all the comments from people have given you a way into moving on with the fic. I am very much looking forward to seeing how it turns out in the end.
thank you for k/d help
Date: 2003-01-13 12:51 pm (UTC)the thing that hits me when I re-read these fics is the whole issue of control.
This is interesting because I really only started to think about that when I'd got the first lot of comments and then it made sense to me, I could see how it would fit in. Interestingly, the control thing is (to me) more of a Karl-issue and it surprised me to see that you (and one other person) thought it affected Dominic. It really made me think very carefully about Dominic again (is still making me think).
When seen casually, he appears to be very laid-back and relaxed about things, but when the reader scratches the surface, they see that he never really allows Karl to do anything that Dom doesn't feel okay with.
Thanks loads for this which had not occurred to me at all. Now I am really having to think whether Dominic *is* this way, whether he changes at all in the course of the story, whether Karl *sees* him like this, whether he kids himself into seeing himself like this but perhaps really isn't -- and so forth.
It is Karl who is the one doing the wooing. Dom, who obviously enjoys this, never takes resonsibility for what happens at any point. He is the one to whom things happen.
Again, very interesting. This is really helpful and I have already had a major thought about Dominic where I think I have cracked at least one of the issues you raise here.
What I have noticed, because I have just re-read the other D/K fics, is that your Dom tends to be passive when you write him with Karl.
I have only written two k/ds, the Arthropods and its present sequel, and Different Tastes. I tried to make Diff. Tastes the antithesis of the Arthrop one but, heh, it seems that unnoticed similarities crept in!! *g*
I wonder if you feel that Karl is the aggressor in relation to Dom and so give them these roles?
The story has changed a lot since Arthropods and it is very interesting that you see it this way. It makes me realise what a lot of territory gets covered in the course of the fic and makes me go back to check whether I have laid the stepping stones clearly enough.
Why fight it? Does Dom want Karl because he has nothing else and because he enjoys the attention? Or is his manner and approach how he gets to his goal - in this case, Karl?
Thank you!!! Because I don't know the answer to this one which is very good because it means I need to sit down and *think*.
Thanks oodles for commenting. I am thinking and writing new scenes in response to all of these comments, as I speak! (Well, not quite as I speak, obviously, but the draft is sitting in longhand form next to my keyboard.)